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Should there be exemptions for those that hold a FD when going for superior COC's

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  • Should there be exemptions for those that hold a FD when going for superior COC's

    Just to get the thoughts of some of the other senior guys on this? Personally I don't think it should be the case, the Class 2 written's were the most challenging exams I have undertaken and as a consequence I feel that I was a better Senior Officer because of it.

  • #2
    depends what you want exemptions from, accademic studies / subjects? Then cant see why not certainly at Seconds level if not Chiefs, but not the professional subjects, the HND has been like this for time in memorial.

    The better debate is the value of the FD at all, given it has to be topped up into a full degree to be really truely "worth" anything (for any given value of worth)

    It's a hobby horse of mine and comes from seeing the inflation of grades / degredation of exams, way back when (just 2 decades ago) the terribly brigt did degrees (lawyers, doctors etc) the not so did HND's and the likes, and everyone else did city and guilds or other bits and bobs, there was (is) always a chance to upgrade over time, but now it seems even a haridresser NEEDS a degree or a FD in Hair (I guess) and Plumbers, and builder and dental assistants too......why? Is my leaky tap repair more complex than before? Is the door I require hanging better hung because he has a degree? Can he quote Neitcher at me as he changes the washer? Are the rules so complex for gas fitting only a degree student can under stand them? I think not

    It's all part of the big education con...no one looses, there are no winners or loosers....non competitive sports days, no no no.....you win or you loose in life as in scholl, everyone gets a gold star for remembering to walk AND talk at the same time!!!

    Grrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!
    Trust me I'm a Chief.

    Views expressed by me are mine and mine alone.
    Yes I work for the big blue canoe company.
    No I do not report things from here to them as they are quite able to come and read this stuff for themselves.


    Twitter:- @DeeChief

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Chiefy View Post
      depends what you want exemptions from, accademic studies / subjects? Then cant see why not certainly at Seconds level if not Chiefs, but not the professional subjects, the HND has been like this for time in memorial.

      The better debate is the value of the FD at all, given it has to be topped up into a full degree to be really truely "worth" anything (for any given value of worth)

      It's a hobby horse of mine and comes from seeing the inflation of grades / degredation of exams, way back when (just 2 decades ago) the terribly brigt did degrees (lawyers, doctors etc) the not so did HND's and the likes, and everyone else did city and guilds or other bits and bobs, there was (is) always a chance to upgrade over time, but now it seems even a haridresser NEEDS a degree or a FD in Hair (I guess) and Plumbers, and builder and dental assistants too......why? Is my leaky tap repair more complex than before? Is the door I require hanging better hung because he has a degree? Can he quote Neitcher at me as he changes the washer? Are the rules so complex for gas fitting only a degree student can under stand them? I think not

      It's all part of the big education con...no one looses, there are no winners or loosers....non competitive sports days, no no no.....you win or you loose in life as in scholl, everyone gets a gold star for remembering to walk AND talk at the same time!!!

      Grrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!
      I bet those with degrees in basket weaving and the like can't even spell school properly!

      I agree with chiefy for engineers, from what I understand of the deck stuff which you guys have to do for mates writtens etc, then I would say that the same thing applies, most of it is stuff which you use directly in day to day life as a mate rather than underpinning knowledge (I am happy to be corrected on this) so no, having a foundation degree shouldn't give exemptions from this.
      Go out, do stuff

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      • #4
        he he he a sure sign I was "on one"
        Trust me I'm a Chief.

        Views expressed by me are mine and mine alone.
        Yes I work for the big blue canoe company.
        No I do not report things from here to them as they are quite able to come and read this stuff for themselves.


        Twitter:- @DeeChief

        Comment


        • #5
          As someone who has done the Proffessional Diploma route which is supped to be the same as the FD in England, I can't for the life of me understand why we get written exemptions at officer of the watch level let alone chief mates. Why should doing 3 seperate courses in management, leadership and communication exempt you from being assesed on your knowledge on stability/chartwork etc etc. It makes absolutely no sense and I'd really like to see someone from the MCA/MNTB actually try to justify it. If the extra courses we had to do were sea related and improved your knowledge then that would be fair enough but they are completely irrelevant and in my experience they actually detract from the other things you should be learning most of the time.

          Having said that I am quite glad that we do get the expemtions because I know a few guys doing the HNC route who do have to do writtens and it looks pretty intense.

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          • #6
            No, absolutely not.
            The very idea that someone who completed the FD as a cadet should be able to gain a masters license without further significant academic testing is ridiculous.
            Indeed, I believe that this system is being reviewed by the MCA.
            It is unfortunate that the UK is reducing standards, however, when you look at the way that other white list countries conduct their training, it is not exactly surprising.
            Cruise ship Captain with experience on-board Passenger Vessels ranging from 5500-150000 GRT.

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            • #7
              Its nice to hear you guys have the same opinion as I. To say I was shocked to find out that those that complete the FD are exempt from the Class 2 Writtens (Deck) would be something of an understatement, couple that with the fact that cadets only need 12 months sea time prior to their OOW doesn't fill me with confidence.

              My main question to the MCA would be what has changed in the previous years that makes operating vessels easier as apparently now rather than 18 months sea time it can be done in 12 months with more exemptions than you can shake a stick at. If I were a cynical chap I would tie it to Tonnage Tax and the fact that companies want to keep cadets the minimum time that they have to do, rather than train people properly its just a huge fast as you can scheme i.e. come to the UK Flag Mr Shipowner; you have to train some people but don't worry we have changed the rules so they will spend as little time as possible at sea - now if you just make the cheque payable to.......

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              • #8
                Originally posted by HolyNougat View Post
                Indeed, I believe that this system is being reviewed by the MCA.
                As I understand it the exemptions for mates level will be removed in 2017 but if you get in before that then the exemptions will still be valid. I plan to try and do this.

                The exemptions at OOW level will remain.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by EH75 View Post
                  if you get in before that then the exemptions will still be valid. I plan to try and
                  I don't blame you for doing it, I would have done the same - it is the system which is flawed in that it ALLOWS you to do it ;-)
                  Cruise ship Captain with experience on-board Passenger Vessels ranging from 5500-150000 GRT.

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                  • #10
                    Oh I completely agree. I Will take any opportunity to try and make things easier for myself but I don't agree with the set up at all and frankly it worries me a bit how competent I will be compared to people who have had to sit the writtens.

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                    • #11
                      As an Engineer cadet currently 1/2 way through my 3rd Phase on the Professional Diploma Route in Scotland(Foundation degree in England) I am obviously quite happy that providing I pass everything I will be given exemptions from the MCA academic exams for 2nd's and Chief's tickets. Having looked at the syllabus on the MCA website I note that Engineering exams cover subjects such as Mathematics, Drawing,Applied Heat,Applied Mechanics,Electrotechnology and Naval Architecture. Personally I don't see how taking and passing more exams after finishing College in Mathematcis or Drawing will help me become a better Officer. For a start the Drawing we are taught at College is with a pencil and not done with CAD the computer programme which most drawings are now done on. I understand 1st and 3rd angle, I can read engineering drawings and I can draw basic diagrams of systems on a ship so what else could I possibly learn that would improve my ability as an Officer.

                      On the subject of Mathematics, most calculations done by engineers on a ship to my knowledge and from my limited sea time are fairly basic and can be done easily with the use of a calculator. For more complex calculations,computer programmes can be used or we can refer to textbooks for formulae etc. On the subject of Applied Heat and Applied Mechanics I can obviously see how further knowledge in these areas would benifit me as and Officer.

                      Knowledge of Thermodynamics and Fluid mechanic principles are essential as an engineer but I have covered these topics at College and to be honest after understanding the basic principles all that is left is some very big equations which on a ship you wouldn't be expected to carry out without the use of a textbook. Applied Mechanics is certainly worthy of greater knowledge and would improve my ability as an Officer.

                      Electrotechnology, well I'm not training to be an ETO but I also know that as Marine Engineers we should most certainly have a good grasp of this subject area, especially with some Shipping companie's looking to get rid of ETO's all together and have Multi skilled Marine/Electrical Officers on their ships instead.

                      I am currently doing Naval Architecture Unit 2 at College and have completed the first Outcome on Hydrostatics and have a further 3 Outcomes to cover. After completion of this course and providing I pass all 4 Outcomes I will be exempt from any further Naval Architecture exams. Throughout my course at College I am learning the basics and about how we as engineers can effect Ship stability etc and also why the ship stays afloat. I guess a more in depth knowledge of this subject matter would improve my ability as an engineer Officer but I can't help but think in our line of work we only need to know the basics, unless of course we wish to move shore side and be active in the Naval Architecture/Design Industry.

                      As far as I am aware I will still have to sit the General Engineering/Motor Engineering exams to gain my next tickets and I feel these are most definitely relevant. Having looked at some past papers for these exams they include questions on different systems found in the Engine room, safety aspects and what to do in the event of a Scavenge fire etc. All stuff we as engineers should most definitely know and be fully competent with.

                      This is just my opinion based on a little research and my time at College, of course I am happy to take the exemptions if it means sitting fewer written exams. The people with the best academics don't always make the best engineers. On my previous ship a Product Tanker the British second engineer I worked with was highly skilled. His knowledge was vast and his engineering skills varied and of an extremely high standard. He had been a second engineer for quite sometime, I have no doubt he would make an excellent Chief engineer although I imagine and he went as far as to admit himself that he would find it hard to deal with all the paperwork and stay out of the engine room if he became a Chief engineer. However his main reason for not becoming a Chief was that he believed he would find it very hard to pass all the MCA academic exams as he had been out of study mode and learning academic subjects for quite sometime and even when a cadet at College found some exams difficult to pass, yet I believe he is a fantastic engineer and his knowledge had great depth but he is being held back purely by academics and that he has no exemptions.
                      Newly qualified Officer #ClubMember

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                      • #12
                        This is a real bug-bear for me, having done the written's I really feel that it is a benchmark of your knowledge (for deck) I know a few that took the other route because they knew the wouldn't be able to pass (and it was very frustrating for the guys who were very switched on who often took more than one attempt to pass).

                        Having spent a lot of time with the MCA surveyors they mostly all felt the same way and indeed adapted the chief mates / masters orals depending on which route the candidate followed, thus I took some solace from that. But we have a situation out there where some holders of Chief mates haven't had to study stability and Nav to the extent that they could pass 2 complex exams in a row where the effect of making a simple clerical error could cost you both exams.

                        Just my two pence worth!
                        Pilotage - It's just a controlled allision

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                        • #13
                          Can anyone point to where this has actually caused an accident?
                          or is it just well they didn't have it in my day so you shouldn't either?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Lewis View Post
                            Can anyone point to where this has actually caused an accident?
                            or is it just well they didn't have it in my day so you shouldn't either?
                            Not sure about that. As I said, I get the exemptions and whilst I am glad of it, I don't really agree with it. I think most of my classmates probably feel the same just going on the discussions we have had in the past.

                            Whether or not it has directly contributed to any accidents I don't know.

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                            • #15
                              Five weeks away from my OOW written exams.

                              Struggling to see how any college exams could match the depth and breadth of knowledge required for these papers, given the colleges' general aim of having students pass and the SQA's general aim of throwing all they've got at you.
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