Announcement

Collapse

SITE UPGRADE

We've just performed a major upgrade to the forum software. You may have noticed things look a bit different!

Please note that some features have yet to be reinstated, this will be done over the next few days. Attachments, pictures and signatures may not function as they should for the time being.

Thanks for your patience!
See more
See less

First time navigation officer

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • First time navigation officer

    So I was informed that i would be taking over the navigation officer duties when i go back for work around mid February and i was wondering what are the things you will usually check/do first once you take over the duties of Nav. Off?(By navigation i mean the officer in charge of passage planning, routes, emergency folio chart correction etc(In case someone uses some other term for this))

    The next voyage will most likely be fully completed when I am on board (unless there are changes) so I can focus my attention on other things, we are using Ecdis and a Navtor software for getting/updating Ecdis charts so that part is pretty easy and simple.
    I know a classic thing i ll have to do when i have time is the usual check of all the emergency folio charts for correct edition/corrections/t&ps, check if the route follows all sms requirements etc but since this is my first time as a navigation officer(and 2nd time as an officer) I am a little worried since i ll definitely need some time to organize and prepare a plan of work that covers all the requirements.

    Also regarding vettings, do they focus on a very specific part these days? What extra things do you do in order to prepare for that?

  • #2
    This website is very useful: http://www.ukho.gov.uk/nmwebsearch/
    You can put in your voyage chart numbers and have a list of all the valid T&P's for that voyage, also you can check for all of the corrections for an individual chart to see if any corrections have been omitted.

    Comment


    • #3
      Most important is when you start as Navigating Officer is to get well known with navigational equipment on board. By means of using manuals of all diverse Equipment, especially the GMDSS equipment, And what is handy, is to get a good routine in all the tasks you have to carry out, for each watch/day/week/voyage by means of Administration/Testing/Controlling/Training. Get well Known with everything as soon as possible, this will give you some rest in busy times!

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by sailingtheworld View Post
        Most important is when you start as Navigating Officer is to get well known with navigational equipment on board. By means of using manuals of all diverse Equipment, especially the GMDSS equipment, And what is handy, is to get a good routine in all the tasks you have to carry out, for each watch/day/week/voyage by means of Administration/Testing/Controlling/Training. Get well Known with everything as soon as possible, this will give you some rest in busy times!
        Oh no by Navigation I mean the person in charge of passage planning, voyage appraisal etc, not first time OOW.

        Anyway, there are a few things I am trying to find and I was wondering if anyone has any idea how to calculate, they are very small but I need to have a formula or something as proof instead of putting 0.1m like many people.
        1. Increase in draft due to list during a turn (This is while the vessel is moving so I am not sure how to calculate)
        2. Increase in draft due to wind (I remember there is a “wind area” value in the vessel’s hydrostatic tables but not sure how you use it)
        3. Increase in draft due to waves (Absolutely no idea how one would calculate that)
        4. Increase in draft due to the nature of the bottom (If I remember there is a small increase in draft when the bottom is pebbles, hard rocks etc while a decrease when it is sand/mud but don’t know any details)

        Or do you know any good places you can find such information?
        Also another thing because most guides seem pretty generic, you can place emergency anchorage before pilot stations or areas that you might need to emergency anchor for X reason, but what if there are like 8 different anchorages near the pilot station, do you even need to add an emergency anchorage?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by ralphie2449 View Post
          1. Increase in draft due to list during a turn (This is while the vessel is moving so I am not sure how to calculate)
          2. Increase in draft due to wind (I remember there is a “wind area” value in the vessel’s hydrostatic tables but not sure how you use it)
          3. Increase in draft due to waves (Absolutely no idea how one would calculate that)
          4. Increase in draft due to the nature of the bottom (If I remember there is a small increase in draft when the bottom is pebbles, hard rocks etc while a decrease when it is sand/mud but don’t know any details)
          Have a look at http://shipsbusiness.com/shallow-water-navigation.html , https://portal.helcom.fi/meetings/SA...0Clearance.pdf and http://www.mxsocal.org/assets/chap-x...-clearance.pdf

          Intertanko published some decent guidelines/advice about dynamic UKC a while ago too.

          I'd say having an emergency anchorage planned and plotted is probably a very good idea... Ya'know, for emergencies. The old man might start asking awkward questions otherwise!
          Pointy bit is the front, blunt bit is the back... Simples!

          Will work for money/sea time.

          Comment


          • #6
            Ah thanks that was quite useful, there is a useful formula for calculating the increase in draft in X degree list.

            The issue seems to be that i cant find anywhere somekind of formula that lets you calculate what degree of list will be caused when turning with X speed X RoT or from X wave height with X period.

            And it seems weird because many pdfs, including the ones you listed do talk about dynamic UKC including things like draft increase due to wave response, heeling during turns yet give no way of calculate that list. (So the same as company sms lmao)

            And i am mainly worried because I want to have a good explanation as to why I have put 38cm draft increase due to wave response for example if a shell vetting inspector ever asks and just saying it was based on experience doesnt seem to cut it from what i heard.

            Comment


            • #7
              As a pilot we use software to calculate the dynamic UKC which is fed directly from wave riders providing wave/swell data and models the ship based on ship particulars and stability data entered for each one. The software is highly complex and expensive and requires occasional updates by taking data measuring equipment with us. So any calculation is going to be simplified and adding a safety factor that might not correlate with offical data provided by a port.

              Comment


              • #8
                Emergency Anchorage is so vague because what emergency are we considering. If it’s an engine failure you have little choice where you will anchor. However you can identify areas unsuitable for anchoring such as over pipelines or underwater obstructions.
                Some ports now provide passage plans and waypoints on their websites which can assist you in addition to the admiralty port approach guides.

                UKC critical pilotage is a very complex area and has so many factors that would make it very hard for the ship to calculate itself without port/pilot guidance. Such information as the actual depths in the port, in a tidal port this can change significantly from day to day between dredging and can be a difference of tens of centimetres through to metres from the admiralty chart. Also due to variety of factors actual tide can vary significantly from the tidal prediction on the curves (0.7m is the largest deviation I’ve seen). Hence why safety margins and blanket rules of thumb are applied by most companies.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ralphie2449 View Post
                  Ah thanks that was quite useful, there is a useful formula for calculating the increase in draft in X degree list.

                  The issue seems to be that i cant find anywhere somekind of formula that lets you calculate what degree of list will be caused when turning with X speed X RoT or from X wave height with X period.

                  And it seems weird because many pdfs, including the ones you listed do talk about dynamic UKC including things like draft increase due to wave response, heeling during turns yet give no way of calculate that list. (So the same as company sms lmao)

                  And i am mainly worried because I want to have a good explanation as to why I have put 38cm draft increase due to wave response for example if a shell vetting inspector ever asks and just saying it was based on experience doesnt seem to cut it from what i heard.
                  Heel due to turn is usually included in the Vessels Stability Booklet - if your vessel is too old to have this, there is a generic formula that can be used for an approximation using the GM and such and I'm sure it's on the "Standard Formulas" that MCA/SQA use but I cant remember what it is at the moment - I remember finding it to do it for a ship I was on years ago.

                  On a side note your ships stablity software is possibly able to calculate this for your loaded condition and produce a nice graph as one of the report options.
                  “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn’t do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.”

                  – Mark Twain
                  myBlog | @alistairuk | flickr | youtube Views and opinions expressed are those of myself and not representative of any employer or other associated party.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    This might not be what you're looking for, however...

                    http://cmst.curtin.edu.au/wp-content...e_in_waves.pdf
                    Pointy bit is the front, blunt bit is the back... Simples!

                    Will work for money/sea time.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by YoungMariner View Post
                      Emergency Anchorage is so vague because what emergency are we considering. If it’s an engine failure you have little choice where you will anchor. However you can identify areas unsuitable for anchoring such as over pipelines or underwater obstructions.
                      Some ports now provide passage plans and waypoints on their websites which can assist you in addition to the admiralty port approach guides.

                      UKC critical pilotage is a very complex area and has so many factors that would make it very hard for the ship to calculate itself without port/pilot guidance. Such information as the actual depths in the port, in a tidal port this can change significantly from day to day between dredging and can be a difference of tens of centimetres through to metres from the admiralty chart. Also due to variety of factors actual tide can vary significantly from the tidal prediction on the curves (0.7m is the largest deviation I’ve seen). Hence why safety margins and blanket rules of thumb are applied by most companies.
                      Ah that is very useful to know, so the only way for a vessel to calculate the worst case scenario of draft increase due to wave response would most likely be experience, from the formula it seems that with 1 degree of list for my vessel the draft would increase by around 38cm, usually the waves at most LNG terminals are pretty low(Since you also dont connect if the weather is bad) so I think even 1 degree of list might be a little too much.
                      Are there any good rules of thumb regarding this, like every x wave height=X degree of list for bigger merchant vessels assuming abeam direction?

                      And yeah the "emergency anchorage" is pretty vague, from past example i see it is usually just being used near port in case the port is closed due to bad weather or for some other reason or if the main anchorage is occupied


                      Originally posted by alistairuk View Post
                      Heel due to turn is usually included in the Vessels Stability Booklet - if your vessel is too old to have this, there is a generic formula that can be used for an approximation using the GM and such and I'm sure it's on the "Standard Formulas" that MCA/SQA use but I cant remember what it is at the moment - I remember finding it to do it for a ship I was on years ago.

                      On a side note your ships stablity software is possibly able to calculate this for your loaded condition and produce a nice graph as one of the report options.

                      Do you remember if heel due to turning has a different name in the stability booklet or in the stability software? I am on a 2007 built LNG carrier so it isnt that old but there are quite a few terms I am not really familiar with.(I ll have to check the stability software in case it has such options)

                      Also regarding that formula, are you referring to the one that calculates the degree of list based on the load conditions, GM etc? Because i am not sure how one would apply that to a moving vessel with X speed and X rate of turn (And i really dont remember any calculation that included those during my time in the maritime academy)

                      Anyway outside of that there are 2 other things I am looking for and havent found anything yet:
                      -Increase in draft due to the nature of the bottom(I have only heard that sand causes a slight decrease while solid bottom causes a slight increase in draft from someone but no proof or at least somekind of article)
                      -Increase in draft due to wind (I assume this is related to the stability booklet's standard wind lever calculation but i am not seeing any variables for wind speed or relative wind direction so i am not sure and most of my google searches show results regarding sailing vessels)

                      Originally posted by MrStealth View Post
                      This might not be what you're looking for, however...

                      http://cmst.curtin.edu.au/wp-content...e_in_waves.pdf
                      Yeah i found this during some google searching, I assumed the same but i had a really big trouble understanding those formulas since i dont know what a few of the variables are or their unit of measurement.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Good article in the Nautical Institute Seaways magazine explaining DUKC. I also have found some tables which provide the wave response UKC data you are looking for, drop me a PM with your email add and I’ll send it through.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Ah cool, will do.

                          Got a new question, cuz it seems that some companies have been copy-pasting a certain UKC policy without really understanding it, or at least that is what i understand from their lack of clarifications and confusion.

                          They give you a basic calculation which depends on the type of area such as approaches/buoyed channels, coastal/confined waters etc.
                          They include a "static" value for the calculation, for example 1.5% of breadth.

                          This leads to a calculation similar to this
                          Company static value 0.65m (1.5% breadth)
                          Increase in draft due to wave response 0.37m (only 1 degree of list which isnt really realistic imo but anyway)
                          Increase in draft due to turning 0.37m (as above)
                          Atmospheric pressure change 0.01m (anything above 1013 pressure according to sms)
                          Water density change 0.00m (Port of arrival/departure have same density)
                          Reliability of data 1.26m (Usually the Catzoc but might add personal safety margins
                          Tide -0.40m
                          Squat 0.25m (At only 6 knots)

                          Total Dynamic UKC calculation is 2.99m

                          With a depth of 13m and draft of 10m the actual static ukc is 3 meters, but the dynamic ukc that the company sees is 0.01m which is often a violation since in this example they have a 0.6m limitation.

                          I was talking about this with a superintendent who was here and he suggested that removing the reliability of data was the best choice since the port manual says that the channel is dredged at 16m with least depth of 13m and i can consider this as an "official" and trusted source meaning the CATZOC does not apply.
                          So my 1st question is, how much do you trust the port manuals? especially if some tell you the draft they have is 13m yet in the Ecdis you see 12.8m


                          And my 2nd issues is the safety depth calculation they suggest which is vessel's draft+squat+"UKC"-tide

                          UKC being completely undefined therefore some people believe they should add the dynamic ukc, others put the 0.6m limitation but i believe you are supposed to add the UKC dynamic calculation aka the 2.99m in there to be safe.

                          Because if the worst "draft" in the worst worst case scenario is 12.99m due to the calculation i cannot justify putting a safety depth below 13m even if the superintendent says that the UKC calculation "supersedes" the safety depth therefore you are safe and ok if a vetting inspector ever asks.

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X