Character Building, not bullying ! MAN UP

[Newtothis]

I know I'm not going to be the most popular person for saying this but..... I wish people would stop complaining to their company and moaning whenever they get asked to do ANYTHING by the crew. When you make a face, moan and get on the phone to your Mum because you have been asked to paint a bulkhead , you deserve to be called a dickhead, you are not being bullied! MAN UP a bit, I am the only English speaker on my crew, as a result iv had to work hard to get the respect and trust of them by doing anything they asked me in double quick time and without moaning.... and this often involved the crappy jobs that as a cadet I EXPECTED TO BE DOING! I am picking up Spanish nicely and also know a few Bulgarian and Russian phrases. So anyone who is considering phoning their company because the mess boy hasn't ironed their sheets... You are in the wrong job lol.

Im sure genuine cases of bullying do exist but just remember you are the lowest rank on the ship, and you know nothing. So yeah, **** jobs do exist and you will be doing them for this exact reason... when you are the Chief, would you send your experienced engineers to clean decks, paint bulkheads and Chip railings? I don't think so, so just shut up and get on with it! Its easier to make friends that way !

rant over


Joe

[ETwhat?]

So you do everything that the crew ask, regardless of how crappy it is, you dont speak up if the crew aren't actually doing their jobs and you find it easy to make friends with with, what do they call you in spanish, el dorrmatt?

[Cclapperford]

I appreciate what you're saying but I genuinely was bullied by a few members of the crew on one of the ships I was on. I was harassed due to my nationality. On the first day I was on the ship this crewmember told me "all the british are F***ing lazy C***s"

One of the OS tried to get me to do all of his work when we were in port. I had already been given work from the chief so it wasn't possible for me to do it. This OS always tried to make me do his jobs and was constantly telling me that he was my boss. I remember hearing the bosun give him a job to do, and the OS came straight to me telling me to do it and went straight to his cabin! I always told him where to go. They then tried to get me to do stupid working hours like 24 hour shifts. Of course I stood up to them and got kicked off the ship. The company didn't want to know.

To cover up for their behaviour they gave me a bad report, with a lot of contradictory statements in.

Of course if you don't have work to do you may as well do it. But if there is some cause for concern such as other crew members who shouldn't be giving you orders doing so, then say something about it. If a member of the crew tries to get you to do his work and goes back to his cabin, don't do it. Always stick up for yourself if someone is bullying you.

[Newtothis]

Yeah I do stand up for myself and it sounds like u had a ****e time tbf, should have just had it out with the OS. Probably not the best idea but better than doing his work lol.

[ETwhat?]

great another army grunt who cant be bothered with that any more but fancies something that lets him still wear a uniform. MN may well use ranks but its managed like any company, you get the work from your manager, so yeah unless one of the officers has actually given you to the crew man to learn from he shouldnt be giving you work of course if your sitting around with both your arms the same lenght then im not surprised they are making you work, I might wonder what the hell you were doing to be in that position in the first place.
as for 'doing any job without question' well technically that would go against our company policy so i think i will leave you to your martyrdom, but i can assue you that i work hard im just pointing out your not there to do someone elses job,

edit: i do know lots of 'top blokes' who are forces or ex forces and i wouldnt consider them in the same paragraph as above,

[GuinnessMan]

Right everyone, calm down a bit and lets not resort to flinging insults about, this is the anon forum and not the Pub (which means your company's can see this!)

When you are on ship, if you are given a legal order you are expected and required to carry it out. If they are demanding that you do 24 hour shifts or anything else unsafe or illegal then you politely refuse and ask for clarification. If they go off on one and screaming and yelling at you, then stand there, let them yell to their hearts content but you remain polite. I would normally let them say what they like, "sticks and stones" and all that jazz, but if it does get to become too much (and it can for some) then there are established procedures within your company's SMS to deal with it. For example, we and my previous company had whats called a "whistleblowing policy" which allowed folks to anonymously report things straight through to the upper management, and anything that comes through like this will be investigated and dealt with appropriately.

To play Devil's advocate, there are some things which "Newtothis" has said, and one of those is that you are the lowest rank on the ship, but that does not give the crew the right to treat you as their virtual slave and general stress relief. Cclapperford, it does sound like you did have a bit of a **** time, but to be honest, I would have just kept my distance from that OS. If he wants to wander around playing "who's got the biggest dick" then let him, cause at the end of the day the senior officers are not fools and they know exactly what their Officers and Ratings are like. Please remember that you are on board to learn, so to a certain extent, the OS is your boss as you're supposed to be learning from them, as a cadet you are not senior to them. Under no circumstances should you have gone and "had it out with the OS" because then that just lands you in the brown sticky stuff. When he's told you to go and do something he's been told to do, think of it as a learning experience for yourself.

I have been involved with an incident in my previous place where there was a serious issue of the cadet being bullied and I'm not talking about people saying nasty things to each other, I'm talking about full on beatings that the poor bastard received over a couple of months, and once we found out about it, well lets just say a lot of folks went home at their own expense (as well as paying for their reliever to come and join) and wound up being blacklisted by one of the largest manning agencies in that country (there are not many reputable ones and it would be quite a blow to them). Proper bullying is not tolerated under any circumstances in any company I know of, but if it is going on, then you are to report it as per your SMS, but it should really be something serious.

[Newtothis]

Apologies Guinnessman, Ill give it a rest now. Ive made my point lol , sorry about the insults.

[Unregistered]

Lol, cant be bothered with that anymore... course mate, you sound like a little know it all **** to be honest with you, I was a REME mechanic, not Infantry. I just know the value of hard work, not questioning your superiors and doing as your told, it's served me well and taught me a lot. I'll do any job thats given to me without questioning it yes, you call this martyrdom, I think we both know who's gonna be getting paid and valued as a crewmember more. Its called knowing your place in the rank system people seem to moan about so much.

................Think GM has hit the nail on the head this is all getting a bit out of hand, while I see the point Newtothis is trying to make it could have been worded better..............

One thing I will question is that you say " I'dd do any job that's given to me without questioning it yes"

Ummmmmmmmm NO NO NO, effectively what you are saying then is that if they tell you to go into an enclosed space without any proper training on procedures or if they ask you to go work aloft and tell you not to bother clipping yourself on that you will do it!!! Well that is just crazy and a sure fire way to get yourself hurt or even worse KILLED. Yes Cadets are the lowest of the low on ships and should do as they are told within reason, they are there to learn and as such must do all the rubbish jobs so that when they are officers and they tell someone to go do it they know how it should be done correctly. However Cadets do need structured training and shouldn't be made to do the same old tasks over and over again, nonody is going to learn much that way.

[GuinnessMan]

not questioning your superiors and doing as your told, it's served me well and taught me a lot

All the rest is perfectly fine, but this is the one line where I would say hold on. This isn't the military where "Can't means won't and won't means jail", you are able to refuse an instruction if it's illegal or dangerous and you can ask for clarification from them. If they come along and say "pop this BA set on and nip into that cargo tank, no need to test the Atmosphere, you'll be fine" my first reaction would be "not a fecking chance pal" because I know it's dangerous and could result in me or someone else being killed and they can kick and scream all they like and the company will back me all the way.

If you are ordered to do something that is dangerous or illegal, then ask them to clarify and if it is indeed illegal then you definitely should say no. "I was ordered to" is not going to go far as a defense if you're involved in dumping oil overboard or some such...

[Newtothis]

Oh yeah of course, if its ridiculously stupid or dangerous, there going to be told that by me, im talking about general jobs and hard graft. People seem to be afraid of it lol

[ETwhat?]

"I was ordered to" is not going to go far as a defense if you're involved in dumping oil overboard or some such...

and of course those great upstanding superiors will stand by you and say 'yes i did tell him to do that' and you will come across people who for what ever reason make decisions that will put you at risk regardless of the amount of paperwork that they tick to say its safe,

and working hard, doing all the jobs, crappy ones included has absolutly nothing to do with character building its about learning how to do the freakin job

[Cclapperford]

Right everyone, calm down a bit and lets not resort to flinging insults about, this is the anon forum and not the Pub (which means your company's can see this!)

When you are on ship, if you are given a legal order you are expected and required to carry it out. If they are demanding that you do 24 hour shifts or anything else unsafe or illegal then you politely refuse and ask for clarification. If they go off on one and screaming and yelling at you, then stand there, let them yell to their hearts content but you remain polite. I would normally let them say what they like, "sticks and stones" and all that jazz, but if it does get to become too much (and it can for some) then there are established procedures within your company's SMS to deal with it. For example, we and my previous company had whats called a "whistleblowing policy" which allowed folks to anonymously report things straight through to the upper management, and anything that comes through like this will be investigated and dealt with appropriately.

To play Devil's advocate, there are some things which "Newtothis" has said, and one of those is that you are the lowest rank on the ship, but that does not give the crew the right to treat you as their virtual slave and general stress relief. Cclapperford, it does sound like you did have a bit of a **** time, but to be honest, I would have just kept my distance from that OS. If he wants to wander around playing "who's got the biggest dick" then let him, cause at the end of the day the senior officers are not fools and they know exactly what their Officers and Ratings are like. Please remember that you are on board to learn, so to a certain extent, the OS is your boss as you're supposed to be learning from them, as a cadet you are not senior to them. Under no circumstances should you have gone and "had it out with the OS" because then that just lands you in the brown sticky stuff. When he's told you to go and do something he's been told to do, think of it as a learning experience for yourself.

I have been involved with an incident in my previous place where there was a serious issue of the cadet being bullied and I'm not talking about people saying nasty things to each other, I'm talking about full on beatings that the poor bastard received over a couple of months, and once we found out about it, well lets just say a lot of folks went home at their own expense (as well as paying for their reliever to come and join) and wound up being blacklisted by one of the largest manning agencies in that country (there are not many reputable ones and it would be quite a blow to them). Proper bullying is not tolerated under any circumstances in any company I know of, but if it is going on, then you are to report it as per your SMS, but it should really be something serious.

Of course there are official routes, the company I was with had a "grievance procedure" but to be honest they couldn't care less. I spoke to the captain about what was going on but he sent me home at the next port. I spoke to the company who then tried to state my claims were malicious and falsified and if I complained again I would be disciplined. A certain union of course weren't much help as they had a personal friendship with the company in question. Looking back on it I should have taken legal action, and I'd advise any other cadet if this happens take them to court.

[Lewis]

I think its also worth remembering that one day well be telling people to do the **** jobs. I don't think I would feel right to tell somebody else to go of and do a job I wouldnt do or haven't done myself. The only time Ive spoke up was when I was given a job I didn't know how to do and most ABs I've sailed with are happy to show me how. Your not just learning how to do the job you need to know what its like to do an ABs job if one day your going to be his boss

[Randomist]

Some interesting points have been raised here.

Lewis has it exactly right in that I would not expect someone to perform a difficult/unpleasant task that I had not done myself. Additionally I also realise that in delegating a task to someone I still retain responsibility for it, therefore I would need to check that it had been done correctly. I don't see how I'm supposed to do this if I have never done it myself.

I have heard stories of cadets being made to do menial or unpleasant tasks purely because they are cadets. Whether this is to be viewed as necessary or deliberately excessive depends on the situation. It is definitely a difficult position to be in as cadet if you should have to decide if the task you have been given is worth while or if it's actually hurting your training. I would imagine only in extreme circumstances is this so.

As has already been said, it is of course acceptable to refuse to do something if your safety would be jeopardised by it or if the task in itself is illegal. Consultation should be made with the ships senior officers, who still retain responsibility over whatever you do, of your concernes and worries. It is unusual for a senior officer to condone tasks that could result in something that they could be held accountable for.

Please can we keep the rest of the thread as a mature discussion. As GM says insults being thrown around on here can be viewed by people without registered accounts (that means companies, colleges or anyone else for that matter).

Thanks everyone

R

[Clanky]

In my experience most cadets are happy to get involved in the ****y jobs so long as they are also getting trained in the stuff that they need to complete their cadetship.

I do however remember one cadet, when I was second engineer on a dredger, telling me that he was there to learn, not to clean when I told him that he was going to be helping me mop the engine room deck.

After the chief peeled me off the control room deckhead he ended up doing the job himself rather than giving me a hand to do it. I wouldn't have minded, but I had made a point of planning a lot of work around his taskbook and had spent a lot of my own time helping him with his coursework. In general if you want the other officers, who are already busy, to spend extra time training you then you need to be as helpful as you can be, however, you should expect them to do their bit and train you as well.

If you find that all you are doing ever is cleaning then go through your taskbook and find some tasks that you need to complete and ask about getting them done rather than complaining about cleaning, some countries operate cadetships in a different way where cadets are basically only at sea to pay for their college training and they then come back as motormen and train on the job to be a watchkeeping officer so the officer who you are working with may not be aware of the training that you need.