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  • Second Job During Cadetship.

    I'm starting a cadetship in September and i've been offered some weekend bar work in the town i'll be studying at. Would I be allowed to work at weekends? I know its not ideal but the extra bit of income will help and if i'm working it means i'm not out spending it in the same places!! My understanding is that we're not in employment, merely sponsorship therefore taking on a part time job shouldnt be an issue.... if anyone can tell me otherwise i'd be thankful.

  • #2
    If there's nothing in your contract that specifically prohibits moonlighting at weekends then you should be ok. Just remember about homework commitments etc etc.
    "Crazy like wild wolves threatened by fire, send them all to the bottom of the sea."

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
      I'm starting a cadetship in September and i've been offered some weekend bar work in the town i'll be studying at. Would I be allowed to work at weekends? I know its not ideal but the extra bit of income will help and if i'm working it means i'm not out spending it in the same places!! My understanding is that we're not in employment, merely sponsorship therefore taking on a part time job shouldnt be an issue.... if anyone can tell me otherwise i'd be thankful.
      Sorry but I think you need to be careful here. First of all, despite it being a sponsorship you are still employed. You have to work the hours set out by the company, they will pay you a salary and you will have either signed an agreement or a contract for the duration of your cadetship.

      Secondly, as Ducki says, there are commitments you will have that will put restrictions on your time.

      Finally, whilst you will not have "splash cash" you will have enough to get you through without another job. Especially as you will not be spending much whilst at sea. Providing you don't want to eat out every night or buy a new VW Golf I would have thought you would be able to get by quite comfortably.

      Ian
      "Any damn fool can navigate the world sober. It takes a really good sailor to do it drunk." - Sir Francis Chichester.
      "Waves are not measured in feet or inches, they are measured in increments of fear." - Buzzy Trent

      "Careers at Sea" Ambassador - Experience of General Cargo, Combo ships, Tanker, Product Carrier, Gas Carrier, Ro-Ro, Reefer Container, Anchor Handlers.

      Comment


      • #4
        From the companies point of view it is unnesscessary you should be able ot live off the allowance without issue, from a contract point of view you wont be probited form working with another employer since as you say your not employed, but there will be something that will goes along the lines of 'must not undertake any activites that have a detrimental effect on your training' so basically if you were working every night in the bar and then failed an exam its as bad as being out drinking every night and failing.
        you can take it with a pinch of salt, but i prefer it with a nip of whisky

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        • #5
          grrr two slow in typing and Ian got in there before me,

          although Ian employed is not th ecorrect wording, (unless you are employed directly by your company) for the sponsorship you have signed an agreement to complete the training and to abide by any terms and conditions that the sponsor has laid down, they could actually make the terms much more demanding than you would ever have in an employment sense.
          you can take it with a pinch of salt, but i prefer it with a nip of whisky

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          • #6
            Also be very cautious in relation to tax, the income you receive from your cadetship may be taxable and once you add an additional salary it may put you over certain thresholds, and you would do well to check with a tax advisor about that.
            That being said, when I was a cadet, a few people then had second jobs.

            Comment


            • #7
              Right, just a few small things: -

              A) Whilst you're sponsored by a company to go and study, you're not actually employed by them as you are not paying tax or NI (it's just easier to look at it that way). If they have nothing in the Agreement against it, then no problem.
              B) However, they will expect you to turn up to class on time and if you're incapable of doing so because you're tired from working at your side job or are unable to pass the exams because you've not been studying but working then they will not be happy and it will most likely impact upon your sponsorship with them,
              C) The subsidy you receive as a cadet is enough so that you don't go over the personal allowance allowed under the tax laws (You're also a Student). If you work, you run the risk of going over that allowance and may then have to pay tax. Your sponsor will not help you with this, so you're on your own form and taxman wise.
              D) The subsidy you receive should be more than enough to sustain you, but we all do like to top it up now and then (I've done it briefly) just be careful how you go about it.
              E) You also may not be able to claim SED from Tax Man as you may not be out the country long enough within the one tax year, so even if you go to sea from January to August and then go back to college you will not have been away long enough, even though you were gone for 8 months.

              Just my two cents...
              I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.....

              All posts here represent my own opinion and not that of my employer.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by GuinnessMan View Post
                A) Whilst you're sponsored by a company to go and study, you're not actually employed by them as you are not paying tax or NI (it's just easier to look at it that way). If they have nothing in the Agreement against it, then no problem.
                C) The subsidy you receive as a cadet is enough so that you don't go over the personal allowance allowed under the tax laws (You're also a Student). If you work, you run the risk of going over that allowance and may then have to pay tax. Your sponsor will not help you with this, so you're on your own form and taxman wise.
                If A is correct and you aren't employed and the income isn't earned, it isn't taxable and C does not apply (and being a student is irrelevant, as I've mentioned before).

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                • #9
                  I am sorry guys but I think you are all barking up the wrong tree.

                  By definition you are an employee if the contracting organisation dictates your terms of work. This even applies to someone who volunteers. There are exceptions to this, such as share fishermen and self employed people. To be self employed you have to provide your own tools of work, are able to choose the hours you work and you define the relationship between you and the contractor. Finally you must be able to work for more than one organisation.

                  Secondly, you do not have to have a written contract of employment in order to be an employee. There merely needs to be an intent by one party to pay you for your services and they dictate the terms under which you work. By this I mean they can tell you when to go to college, when to go to sea and dictate the rules of how you are expected to behave.

                  Don't think that because you have no guaranteed job at the end that you are not an employee. It is merely a fixed term contract. That can be fixed by timescale, or it can be fixed by achievement. ie. Passing exams.

                  Whether you sign a cadetship agreement, a contract or an apprenticeship you are an employee.

                  Should you earn over ?8105 in a year, from one or more jobs, you will pay tax. If you earn over ?146 per week you will also pay national insurance at 12% on anything over the threshold.

                  The only way you can pay no tax is if you stay out of the country for more than 183 days in the year.

                  If you have a second employment then that employer must deduct tax on all of your earnings (BR tax code) unless you are able to split your tax code.

                  It does not matter if you are a student. If you earn over the tax threshold you will have to pay tax.

                  The only way you avoid tax and NI is if you work for a ltd company that you own, contract your services out and then pay yourself a min wage, pay corporation tax on profits and then pay yourself a dividend. Once the dividend goes over ?32000 you then pay NI on the proportion over ?32000.

                  Now i am not aware of any special rules for shipping companies and cadets, so I may be wrong, but I have been employing people shoreside for 24 years and those are the general rules.

                  There is also the working time directive to take into account but that is a different discussion to this.

                  Ian.
                  "Any damn fool can navigate the world sober. It takes a really good sailor to do it drunk." - Sir Francis Chichester.
                  "Waves are not measured in feet or inches, they are measured in increments of fear." - Buzzy Trent

                  "Careers at Sea" Ambassador - Experience of General Cargo, Combo ships, Tanker, Product Carrier, Gas Carrier, Ro-Ro, Reefer Container, Anchor Handlers.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    What I said still stands, and I agree with Hatchorder, regardless of what the money your getting is called (allowance, salary, pocket money, giggalo money), if it goes over the threshold it is taxable.
                    I've seen people caught out by this.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by AncientMariner View Post
                      What I said still stands, and I agree with Hatchorder, regardless of what the money your getting is called (allowance, salary, pocket money, giggalo money), if it goes over the threshold it is taxable.
                      I've seen people caught out by this.
                      Yep, the taxman has become particularly adroit at catching out waiters/waitresses and barpersons of late. Two girls I work with got their tips taxed this year and not declaring also gets you a rather nasty letter too. Why you'd put your tips in a traceable account is beyond me, they're given it in cash.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Some great help there guys. I'm not going to be working during the week, only Friday and Saturday nights to make sure i'm not too tired for studies, and my understanding is the money I recieve from my sponsoring company is sponsorship, and therefore not taxable. (I've checked this with a friend who works in the tax office). I won't be earning a fortune, just an extra ?100 or so to keep me ticking over. And If I was'nt working i'd only be out spending it! It's reassuring to hear a few of you have had a few second jobs whilst studying too...

                        Again thanks for the input.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I'm in Phase 5 studying at Warsash with Clyde Marine. Plenty of Cadets have a part time job, it's not a problem.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Hatchorder View Post
                            Now i am not aware of any special rules for shipping companies and cadets, so I may be wrong, but I have been employing people shoreside for 24 years and those are the general rules.
                            I have finally found the relevant part of the tax manuals for the supposed 'tax free' nature of cadet sponsorship and training allowances. It actually seems to be justified! My scepticism is rescinded.

                            http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/esmmanual/ESM2600.htm

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Steve View Post
                              I have finally found the relevant part of the tax manuals for the supposed 'tax free' nature of cadet sponsorship and training allowances. It actually seems to be justified! My scepticism is rescinded.

                              http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/esmmanual/ESM2600.htm
                              Steve, it is my understanding of those pages that from the flowchart it can be seen that in the first question the answers is No, then the second and third is quite clearly a yes as in that when you go to sea on your sea phases you are expected to work, not observe, and is more than just minor in nature. The distinction between minor work and work is flaky to say the least, but from how I see it when you are on a ship you "work" as opposed to "observe" and therefore the conclusion is that it is an apprenticeship. By that definition then the wording : "From 6 April 2003, employment income is chargeable under Part 2 of ITEPA 2003 and under S.4(1)(b) "employment" includes any employment under a contract of apprenticeship" means that tax IS deductable

                              People will still pay National Insurance as the wording is: "For NICs purposes, a person who is gainfully employed in Great Britain either under a contract of service or in an office with emoluments chargeable to income tax under Schedule E/general earnings is an employed earner for contribution purposes. The term ‘contract of service’ includes contract of apprenticeship."

                              Others talk about sponsorship but the only three things talked about in the document are contract of apprenticeship, contract of training or a contract of service.

                              Can other cadets confirm that if they get paid over ?8,105 in a year they have NOT had tax or National Insurance deducted, and which company they work for?

                              However in all cases you are still classed as an employee with a contract of employment because "A contract of employment is specifically defined in much of the employment rights legislation as meaning a contract of service or apprenticeship." This affords you the protection under employment law.

                              Ian
                              "Any damn fool can navigate the world sober. It takes a really good sailor to do it drunk." - Sir Francis Chichester.
                              "Waves are not measured in feet or inches, they are measured in increments of fear." - Buzzy Trent

                              "Careers at Sea" Ambassador - Experience of General Cargo, Combo ships, Tanker, Product Carrier, Gas Carrier, Ro-Ro, Reefer Container, Anchor Handlers.

                              Comment

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