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Cadet mistreatment during Sea Phases

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  • Cadet mistreatment during Sea Phases

    Hi Guys,

    I am collating info / stories on cadet mistreatment at sea (by mistreatment I mean the following: Verbal or physical abuse; substandard accommodation; lack of interest in your development; not taking your record book seriously, etc). I am a vice-chair of my local Nautical Institute branch and captain with a large shipping company. We are trying to get the Chamber of Shipping interested in cadet welfare, having many examples of poor treatment would go a long way to making this happen. Please post any incidents or experiences you have had. Keep it as anonymous as you like - also please bear in mind this is a public forum!
    21
    Yes
    61.90%
    13
    No
    38.10%
    8

    The poll is expired.


  • #2
    I would consider how you are asking the question and what you will do with the information...

    The title of the poll is 'poor experience due to lack of interest or bad management' however in your post you are talking about 'verbal or physical abuse'?

    Waving such a big wide stick isn't going to get the information you need, nor do I expect through an anonymous poll without any verification of the respondents. The Chamber are heavily involved in Cadet Welfare, both on a professional and personal level. However I wouldn't expect them to treat the results of your 'fact finding' in an open forum as a good representation of what is happening during a Cadet's sea phase.

    I think your intentions are good, but this isn't the way to go about it.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by CaptainS View Post
      Hi Guys,

      I am collating info / stories on cadet mistreatment at sea (by mistreatment I mean the following: Verbal or physical abuse; substandard accommodation; lack of interest in your development; not taking your record book seriously, etc). I am a vice-chair of my local Nautical Institute branch and captain with a large shipping company. We are trying to get the Chamber of Shipping interested in cadet welfare, having many examples of poor treatment would go a long way to making this happen. Please post any incidents or experiences you have had. Keep it as anonymous as you like - also please bear in mind this is a public forum!
      Forgive me for being an old cynic but is this going to be a repeat of the journalist woman who rocked up asking us to dish the dirt and disappearing when it wasn't forthcoming. Be careful what you say folks. CaptainS only joined 15 minutes ago and this is his first post.

      Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
      io parlo morse

      Comment


      • #4
        Goms

        If you aren't interested in replying to the question then by all means don't. This has been started due to a large number of stories I, and other members of our branch have heard from local cadets. We aren't interested in newspaper stories - we are interested in the welfare of cadets. For those of us who were lucky enough to come up through large well managed companies this probably won't be an issue. I am slightly concerned we are already in the "Grumpy Old Man Syndrome" territory here.

        I can assure you I am not a troll - regardless of what endure thinks. If you read carefully I have already advised folk to be careful as this is a public forum. If you want to post - post - if not - don't.

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Newbie,

          Maybe you can tell me what information I do need? Also perhaps you can help by letting us know a better way "to go about it"? All we are looking for here is some real life examples. As I can assure you thats what the CoS will ask for if approached. Bear in mind that the many shipping companies under the Red Duster are customers of the CoS - so they have a vested interest in not "rocking the boat".

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by CaptainS View Post
            Hi Newbie,

            Maybe you can tell me what information I do need? Also perhaps you can help by letting us know a better way "to go about it"? All we are looking for here is some real life examples. As I can assure you thats what the CoS will ask for if approached. Bear in mind that the many shipping companies under the Red Duster are customers of the CoS - so they have a vested interest in not "rocking the boat".
            Hi CaptainS... I'm aware how the Chamber and MNTB are set up, we are a member and I attend. I would assume they would want information supplied by their members, therefore having credibility. I do see the obvious flaw in this, as what company would openly admit it isn't able to provide the correct onboard training experience.

            Could it not be the MCA rather than the CoS (or as well as) who should be the intended recipient of any findings? They outline the Training Providers obligations under SMarT (MGN455 - Points 8-10) - should they not be taking a greater role in enforcing and monitoring the quality of onboard training?

            I do wonder how many of the examples you might be presented with were handled ashore? Did they approach their sponsor, did they raise a grievance - what was the outcome. Did it instigate any change onboard (would they know?).

            Could you set up a more detailed survey (survey monkey?), asking more specific questions? Specify who you are and how the data will be used, how will you feed back to those who responded? Could you get Nautilus to support the survey, promoted in the Telegraph?

            As I said, the intention is good I just think you get a one-time shot at getting it right.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by newbie View Post
              Hi CaptainS... I'm aware how the Chamber and MNTB are set up, we are a member and I attend. I would assume they would want information supplied by their members, therefore having credibility. I do see the obvious flaw in this, as what company would openly admit it isn't able to provide the correct onboard training experience.

              Could it not be the MCA rather than the CoS (or as well as) who should be the intended recipient of any findings? They outline the Training Providers obligations under SMarT (MGN455 - Points 8-10) - should they not be taking a greater role in enforcing and monitoring the quality of onboard training?

              I do wonder how many of the examples you might be presented with were handled ashore? Did they approach their sponsor, did they raise a grievance - what was the outcome. Did it instigate any change onboard (would they know?).

              Could you set up a more detailed survey (survey monkey?), asking more specific questions? Specify who you are and how the data will be used, how will you feed back to those who responded? Could you get Nautilus to support the survey, promoted in the Telegraph?

              As I said, the intention is good I just think you get a one-time shot at getting it right.

              Hi Newbie,

              We have actually already contacted several stakeholders - I won't go into details at the moment. We are at a very early stage here - depending on the results we can continue to gather info. I'm sure you're aware a young cadet is unlikely to raise a grievance or stand up to senior management onboard. I have heard horrendous stories about cadet treatment - cadets being stuck in cable trunks due to lack of cabins, being used as dogs bodies (for their whole cadetship), being forced to falsify rest hour records, deck cadets having no bridge time at the end of their sea time, undertaking risky jobs and being shouted down if they question it. The list goes on. What we're looking for at the moment are examples. It will be a long process, we are not rushing it. In fact, if you look through many of the forums you'll find plenty examples - I just wanted some collated in one thread to make it easier.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by CaptainS View Post
                Hi Guys,

                I am collating info / stories on cadet mistreatment at sea (by mistreatment I mean the following: Verbal or physical abuse; substandard accommodation; lack of interest in your development; not taking your record book seriously, etc). I am a vice-chair of my local Nautical Institute branch and captain with a large shipping company. We are trying to get the Chamber of Shipping interested in cadet welfare, having many examples of poor treatment would go a long way to making this happen. Please post any incidents or experiences you have had. Keep it as anonymous as you like - also please bear in mind this is a public forum!
                There are too many cases of mistreatment and abuse of cadets I could tell you including myself....

                Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

                Comment


                • #9
                  I always find lack of interest to be in the eyes of the beholder. There are cadets who seem to expect more interest from those on board than they show themselves

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi

                    Just a few comments.

                    - Voting is only available to registered members, so poll response will be limited to that group. Statistics tell me that only about 25% of our visitors actually have an account.
                    - I would caution anybody giving accounts of negative experiences in this thread that, unless posted anonymously, your user name and other posts may reveal more than you think. Please be cautious and consider your own and your company's reputation. Please read the guidance in our terms of service (link at bottom of page).

                    On a personal note, I must echo newbie's concerns about the quality of research. A simple yes/no entirely excludes important demographic factors and misses the opportunity to collect supporting data. Is nationality a factor? Type of ship? Shipboard response? Shoreside response? Individual or collective? Specific or general? The list goes on.

                    Research into a relevant and important topic must always be applauded and as a member of the Nautical Institute I entirely appreciate the value of an independent organisation and its enthusiastic members working to better our industry. I understand that this is preliminary research but I would caution you to ensure that it is just that. If you proceed to a more detailed survey we would be happy to promote it amongst our members and social media followers.

                    Chris
                    sigpic
                    Hello! I'm Chris. I'm away a lot so I'm sorry if it takes me a while to reply to messages, but I promise I'll get back to everyone. If it's urgent, please email me directly at christopher.doyle@officercadet.com.

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                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The question can't really be answered with a yes/no answer, in my opinion. What qualifies as lack of interest? One cadet may be happy to get themselves stuck in onboard and the other may wait for it all to be spoonfed to them, both are going to have different answers to this question even if they worked with the same crew.

                      Of course there is no doubting some cadets are unfortunate enough to be put in situations where they can't even get stuck in if they tried as well as facing mistreatment. Again though it depends on the cadet, what may be seen as mistreatment by some may not be seen as mistreatment by others.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        CaptainS, I think what you are trying to achieve here is admirable, however, I would suggest that you go about it differently.

                        The survey monkey suggestion is a good one, with specific questions aimed at identifying specific problens rather than whether or not cadets felt that they were treated badly or not.

                        Physical abuse is clear. Verbal abuse should be clear, but in some peoples' eyes being told to get their arse out of bed in the mornings after being late for watch is verbal abuse.

                        Lack of interest is also ambiguous, I was once told by a cadet that he was there to learn, not to clean, it would have gone down better if I did not have a mop in my hand at the time as it was a ship with no engine room ratings and we all did our bit cleaning.
                        Go out, do stuff

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by CaptainS View Post
                          Hi Guys,

                          I am collating info / stories on cadet mistreatment at sea (by mistreatment I mean the following: Verbal or physical abuse; substandard accommodation; lack of interest in your development; not taking your record book seriously, etc). I am a vice-chair of my local Nautical Institute branch and captain with a large shipping company. We are trying to get the Chamber of Shipping interested in cadet welfare, having many examples of poor treatment would go a long way to making this happen. Please post any incidents or experiences you have had. Keep it as anonymous as you like - also please bear in mind this is a public forum!
                          Which branch exactly? How would I, or anyone else here for that matter, know if you are who you say you are and not a Journo from The Sun or Daily Mail looking for a good scare story?

                          Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                          If you aren't interested in replying to the question then by all means don't. This has been started due to a large number of stories I, and other members of our branch have heard from local cadets. We aren't interested in newspaper stories - we are interested in the welfare of cadets. For those of us who were lucky enough to come up through large well managed companies this probably won't be an issue. I am slightly concerned we are already in the "Grumpy Old Man Syndrome" territory here.

                          I can assure you I am not a troll - regardless of what endure thinks. If you read carefully I have already advised folk to be careful as this is a public forum. If you want to post - post - if not - don't.
                          At the moment all you have is anecdotal evidence and I can appreciate that you want to turn that into some actual data, but I agree with Newbie in that you're not going the right way about it. If you want to do a proper survey of cadets then I would suggest that it be done via the institute itself and perhaps try and get the likes of the IMarEST involved as well (so you cover the Engineers) otherwise you won't have any credibility with the MCA or even reliable data.

                          Don't get me wrong, I've heard a few horror stories myself and I am all for making sure the cadets get proper training and aren't used as cheap labour, but this either has to be done properly or not at all as the message will be devalued. I'm more than happy to help with data collection and analytics but it has to be done via the institute otherwise it's just going to be seen as yet another set of loonies with an axe to grind, and bear in mind we have a few on this forum.
                          I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.....

                          All posts here represent my own opinion and not that of my employer.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                            If you aren't interested in replying to the question then by all means don't. This has been started due to a large number of stories I, and other members of our branch have heard from local cadets. We aren't interested in newspaper stories - we are interested in the welfare of cadets. For those of us who were lucky enough to come up through large well managed companies this probably won't be an issue. I am slightly concerned we are already in the "Grumpy Old Man Syndrome" territory here.

                            I can assure you I am not a troll - regardless of what endure thinks. If you read carefully I have already advised folk to be careful as this is a public forum. If you want to post - post - if not - don't.
                            I didn't suggest that you were a troll but I've been round the 'net long enough to have seen people's lives wrecked because of a few ill considered remarks to the wrong person. Let's hope that you aren't one of them.

                            Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
                            io parlo morse

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I have avoided joining in with this thread because I think it is flawed, but having seen another thread posted I have decided I need to put a point across.....

                              This is a real experience, which I have reported elsewhere as an anonymous experience by a cadet named Roger. But as anonymity allows people to hide behind things I will report it more accurately here. For the sake of argument call my son Roger!

                              Roger was a Deck Cadet on the 12-4 watch on a ship where the Captain insisted on Sunday Morning inspections every week. One Sunday Roger forgot to set his alarm, even though he has the afternoon off for studying, only to be woken by the Old Man walking in at 10am and asking what the hell he thought he was doing being in bed, and the Captain has a bit of a roar…

                              Roger gets up immediately, cleans his cabin and walks into the Saloon for lunch knowing he is due a bollocking. The Captain calls him over and sure enough hands him a slight bollocking - but then presents him with a very large wooden spoon from the galley with a label all down the length with the words “Wanker of the Week award presented to Cadet Roger, MV Rusty Bucket, Week 26, Voyage 1212” with instructions that he has to carry it around for the next week and even sleep with it by his side as a punishment. For a week Roger carries it on deck watch in port, on the bridge, to every meal and even stands it next to his bunk. He takes all the ribbing that goes with it in good humour and never forgets to set his alarm again to clean his cabin on a Sunday morning. The following Sunday he hands it back to the Captain with a flourish in the Saloon at lunchtime and the Captain announces that the new recipient is an engineer cadet whose name is not Donald!

                              Donald at that point storms out the saloon and the Captain tells the remaining deck and engine cadets that they had better talk to Donald and get him to come back and take it like a man. Three cadets go to talk to Donald, but he refuses to come out of his cabin and tells them all where to shove it. They return to the Saloon and the Captain then tells them to get him to come to his office where he delivers a verbal rocket to Donald. Donald then makes his second mistake by getting into a shouting match with the Captain…. What follows is not pleasant…

                              Later on, on the bridge, the Captain turns to Roger and tells him he admires him for the way he took what was a fun way of delivering a light arse kicking and being so grown up about joining in with the fun of it…. Roger leaves the ship with a very good report from the Old Man.

                              The reason I have told this story again is to highlight a point.....

                              My son (Roger!) told me all about it - truthfully. He knew he had done wrong, took the banter in the way it was meant, learned his lesson and moved on. The Engineer cadet, who was treated in exactly same way had a completely different perspective of the incident.

                              Had you asked them both to write up what they experienced my son would tell you he was lightly punished for being a muppet and getting caught in bed on a Sunday morning and the punishment was light touch and funny. The engineer cadet would report it as a bullying or intimidating incident for exactly the same thing.

                              Whilst there are incidents which will reflect bad practice, bullying, law breaking and downright intimidation there are always three sides to the story. The Cadet's, the Officer who dealt out the "punishment" and somewhere in between is the truth, but you will NEVER know where the truth lies.

                              In my time at sea I came across cadets who were boisterous, downright stupid at times and did some absolutely stupid things. (My Seamans Card still has washed out watermarks and is wrinkled where I got back to the ship and realised there was a fence stopping me getting back to the gangway and so I decided it was easier to shin up a mooring rope than walk round to the next dock.... I fell into the dock!) They knew they were wrong and took whatever was said in the right way and acted on it and became better officers for it. I also came across people at the other end of the scale. They were never wrong, someone else always picked on them, everyone else was a twat etc.....

                              People are sometimes very economical with the truth, as they hate to admit they were wrong or want to portray themselves in a bad light.

                              Me? I got a bollocking for ending up in the dock, got a dressing down for doing something dangerous, got told to go and sleep off the alcohol that lead me to think I was Superman and missed the next run ashore because I got caught! Not because of what I had done.. Was it fair? - of course it was. I deserved more in truth.

                              My son? He played cricket on the bridge most nights with the wooden spoon that week with the second Officer and the watchman with screwed up bits of paper, and kept hitting it out of the bridge door. For fun they decided to play with the big ball of rubber bands the Captain was very proud of, as he had been building it for some time. Unfortunately my son hit it for six over the bridge wing............. Neither he nor the 2/O owned up to the Old Man when he could not find his rubber band ball..... If he reads this he knows who it was now!
                              "Any damn fool can navigate the world sober. It takes a really good sailor to do it drunk." - Sir Francis Chichester.

                              "Waves are not measured in feet or inches, they are measured in increments of fear." - Buzzy Trent

                              "Careers at Sea" Ambassador - Experience of General Cargo, Combo ships, Tanker, Product Carrier, Gas Carrier, Ro-Ro, Reefer Container, Anchor Handlers.

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