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Smart funding seafarer numbers etc

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  • #16
    Originally posted by newbie View Post
    ...and if it would be back-dated for those currently in training.
    Now THAT is something which is very good news indeed!

    Now all I've got to do is hope it's approved before I finish in mid 2017... *crosses fingers*.
    Pointy bit is the front, blunt bit is the back... Simples!

    Will work for money/sea time.

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    • #17
      Chances it being in for Sept 2017 starters?

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      • #18
        Don't forget the knock-on effect of this, there will be fewer cadetships available. I wouldn't be surprised to see the colleges are against such an employment link.

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        • #19
          Fewer cadetships is needed, already ridiculously over subscribed.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by bobofinga View Post
            Fewer cadetships is needed, already ridiculously over subscribed.
            I don't disagree at all, but fewer cadetships looks 'bad' in a report of how 'well' the UK Flag/Employment/etc... is doing. I would imagine the gov't will stick with quantity over quality, but I hope to be wrong.

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            • #21
              Depends how they do the employment link. If it is just a token "you must employ cadets for a minimum of 3 months on qualification" (for example). It will just result in a lot of newly qualified OOWs with 3 months seatime instead of zero. They need to reduce cadetships massively and only offer them to companies who can demonstrate that they regularly employ British officers through all ranks.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by EH75 View Post
                Depends how they do the employment link. If it is just a token "you must employ cadets for a minimum of 3 months on qualification" (for example). It will just result in a lot of newly qualified OOWs with 3 months seatime instead of zero. They need to reduce cadetships massively and only offer them to companies who can demonstrate that they regularly employ British officers through all ranks.
                And adding that any job should come with UK/western Europe level wages. I've found there are jobs out there but not at any kind of level I could accept with the cost of living here.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by condeh View Post
                  Don't forget the knock-on effect of this, there will be fewer cadetships available.
                  I wouldn't be so sure.

                  1. Those who train due to a Tonnage Tax obligation but don't offer employment - it may just encourage the company to offer 12 mths seatime on qualification (or whatever the criteria is set as) but there would be no reduction in numbers.
                  2. Those who elect to train (with no TT obligation) or those who train more than their minimum obligation, and offer positions as Junior Officer - it can only potentially increase the number of Cadets they may take on.
                  3. Charity organisations who own no ships - while they may have no jobs to offer on graduation, the companies on whose ships they train may be in a position to offer jobs IF the financial carrot is available to them.

                  I don't see a scenario of fewer Cadetships being available.

                  Originally posted by condeh View Post
                  I wouldn't be surprised to see the colleges are against such an employment link.
                  I think they would be delighted. Potentially more Cadets in training, more being offered employment, more coming back for higher tickets and short courses.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by newbie View Post
                    I wouldn't be so sure.

                    1. Those who train due to a Tonnage Tax obligation but don't offer employment - it may just encourage the company to offer 12 mths seatime on qualification (or whatever the criteria is set as) but there would be no reduction in numbers.
                    2. Those who elect to train (with no TT obligation) or those who train more than their minimum obligation, and offer positions as Junior Officer - it can only potentially increase the number of Cadets they may take on.
                    3. Charity organisations who own no ships - while they may have no jobs to offer on graduation, the companies on whose ships they train may be in a position to offer jobs IF the financial carrot is available to them.

                    I don't see a scenario of fewer Cadetships being available.



                    I think they would be delighted. Potentially more Cadets in training, more being offered employment, more coming back for higher tickets and short courses.

                    Hmm, I tend to disagree.

                    1. Those who currently train due to a TT obligation - are they likely to have a wage structure adequate to cope with the 'demands' of a UK junior officer? Even if they do, they already have (one would presume) suitable manning and recruitment levels, with budgets set to match. They will only take on cadets so long as the formula 'value of TT - cost of employment' is positive. At a certain point it will cost more than they make, so they will reduce, or at least limit, cadet numbers.

                    2. Those who have no TT obligation presumably have a recruitment strategy, only training the number they expect to need in 3/4 years time. No need to increase cadetship numbers.

                    3. OK, perhaps there will be an increase in this area.

                    For the colleges, it all depends on the length of employment req'd. If it is only 3 months, what higher ticket will the OOW be studying for? If, however, the employment link calls for 12 months seatime, then the farcical new seatime requirement for higher tickets would play into the hands of the colleges.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by condeh View Post
                      Hmm, I tend to disagree.

                      1. Those who currently train due to a TT obligation - are they likely to have a wage structure adequate to cope with the 'demands' of a UK junior officer? Even if they do, they already have (one would presume) suitable manning and recruitment levels, with budgets set to match. They will only take on cadets so long as the formula 'value of TT - cost of employment' is positive. At a certain point it will cost more than they make, so they will reduce, or at least limit, cadet numbers.

                      2. Those who have no TT obligation presumably have a recruitment strategy, only training the number they expect to need in 3/4 years time. No need to increase cadetship numbers.

                      3. OK, perhaps there will be an increase in this area.

                      For the colleges, it all depends on the length of employment req'd. If it is only 3 months, what higher ticket will the OOW be studying for? If, however, the employment link calls for 12 months seatime, then the farcical new seatime requirement for higher tickets would play into the hands of the colleges.
                      I take your points but I do see some more positives in it.

                      1. The wage structure for a UK Junior Officer is largely irrelevant if the money would cover the period of guaranteed seatime/employment required to access the additional SMarT funds. In effect it would cost the company nothing to employ the UK Officer for a fixed period, thus saving money on daily running costs. The value of TT is difficult to calculate as it really depends on the company performance which you can't really forecast, it just guarantees the value of tax due each year.

                      2. I agree, but only if your company just trains British Cadets. Given many companies train a lot of different nationalities, and if you can now train three UK Cadets for the price of one - factoring in the additional money into the Cadet budget rather than vessels budget - it's got to be a positive.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by newbie View Post
                        I take your points but I do see some more positives in it.

                        1. The wage structure for a UK Junior Officer is largely irrelevant if the money would cover the period of guaranteed seatime/employment required to access the additional SMarT funds. In effect it would cost the company nothing to employ the UK Officer for a fixed period, thus saving money on daily running costs. The value of TT is difficult to calculate as it really depends on the company performance which you can't really forecast, it just guarantees the value of tax due each year.

                        2. I agree, but only if your company just trains British Cadets. Given many companies train a lot of different nationalities, and if you can now train three UK Cadets for the price of one - factoring in the additional money into the Cadet budget rather than vessels budget - it's got to be a positive.

                        Fair points, thank you for elaborating - I felt like I was missing something.

                        I do hope we see more meaningful employment of British officers, it's better for all of us in the long run.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Midge View Post
                          Current scheme funding finishes end of March, looks like they are trying to secure more money for the new one. I wonder if they are going to fund the higher tickets too. Seems the lack of jobs for newly qualified has at least been noticed.

                          https://www.ukchamberofshipping.com/...smart-funding/


                          Details of the current scheme all together here. Quite useful to help understand how it all works.
                          https://www.gov.uk/guidance/support-...training-smart
                          Still waiting...

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                          • #28
                            They did at least least update the notice which expired though. No doubt Brexit will be used as an excuse for lots and lots of things in the next couple of years!

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                            • #29
                              How would the government pulling the current cadet scheme funding effect those already embarking on cadetships?

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                              • #30
                                When Britain leaves the EU things like State aid guidelines depending on what they negotiate won't need to exist so the Uk can run whatever scheme they like. State aid guidelines impose restrictions on who and what can receive money, its so it doesn't damage other members interests. Or it's there to ensure they are there for other beneficial reasons i.e. So there are the skilled people needed, as in seafarer numbers.
                                our smart funding operatates within state aid guidelines.
                                Currently any EU person can access smart funding if they qualify under the other eligibility criteria, after Brexit? Up to the Uk to decide.
                                Smart is only part of the funding that is used, and if the industry wants more cadets for the forecasted future shortages then, either the government carries on to ensure that doesn't happen, or companies will find crews from somewhere else, or they put more money in themselves.
                                There were articles in the Telegraph the Nautilus union paper recently and the need for the scheme to be better financed, and also to look at how many COCs are given in exchange for CECs ( been rising a lot) and if other countries seafarers qualifications match the UK. Introducing smart plus so cadets once qualified get given work so they gain in rank experience for a period of time.

                                When you do see junior officer jobs advertised (rare occasions these days) they often ask for at least 6 months in rank experience, a catch 22 situation if you have never had a job and just qualified. Oil sea price drop has made it even worse fewer jobs around, and well qualified experienced people are more likely to get any jobs that there are first.
                                When I think back to 2011/12 there were lots of jobs advertised for new officers. It has changed quite a bit.

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