Grangemouth

[GuinnessMan]

So it seems that Grangemouth is now to close...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/10398563/Grangemouth-owners-Ineos-to-close-petrochemical-site.html

What do we all think?

[bobofinga]

Its only the petrochemical plant NOT the refinery.

[bobofinga]

It seems Ineos called Unite's bluff and then the unions arse collapsed.

[EH75]

Bit of a mess eh? Suspect this has a bit to go yet.

[GuinnessMan]

Bit of a mess eh? Suspect this has a bit to go yet.

Indeed. Be hard to re-open the Petrochem bit as it was losing something like ?10mill per month!

[ETwhat?]

I wonder if the 600 people the union convinced to hand the forms to them rather than the company will be the first out the door?

While it is hard to ever consider doing the same job for less money it does seem to be a case of the union being so adamant that a better deal was out there that they wouldn't listen to reason, I would prefer a pay cut or a pension cut to having no job at all

[EH75]

Saw something on twitter there saying the union has put a "last ditch" proposal in in an effort to stop the shut down.

[Hatchorder]

These sorts of things make my blood boil.....

The dispute started months ago because a union official was accused of rigging the selection of a Labour candidate for a parlimentary seat and Ineos investigated him for doing union business whilst at work and so Unite members were asked to vote on strike action in support of him. Once they voted to Strike Ineos closed the plant on safety grounds before the strike action kicked in. The strike was then called off but the closure went ahead.

An employer has been honest to an extent and told the staff they are losing ?10m a month. They have said that unless things change they will have to close and so came up with a rescue plan. It was not a bluff but a commercial decision. Personally if I was either the employer or the shareholders I would have been exactly the same.

Somebody, somewhere sat down and said "they are bluffing" so they advised their members not to accept an offer that would have saved the plant..... Just over half voted to reject the offer according to what I know and so the employer said "fair enough - we will close it".

They were not being asked to take a pay cut - as many have had to over the last 5 years, just a pay freeze.

They were asked to give up their bonuses - fair enough this may have been a big top up - I don't know. But it was a bonus. If it was performance related then surely losing ?10m a month meant they would not be getting big bonuses anyway?

Finally they were asked to give up final salary pensions - most of which have gone down the swanny in the last few years because of the increasing life expectancies and therefore holes in pensions all over the place.

As someone said - the Union Officials will not be stood at the front of the queue at the job centre when the plant closes. Because of pig headed intransigence then 100's of people will be out of work. Now I know it may be harder for everyone to survive on a loss of bonus, but surely that is better than having no job at all?

Finally the dear old politicians wade in saying it is a disgrace that the plant is closing because it is important to Scotland. Last I heard the politicians are not the shareholders and therefore have no say in it unless they stump up the readies. The owners / shareholders are the people losing the money and do not sing to the tune of the politicians. The politicians would be better employed sitting down the unions and their members and getting them to understand the facts. If a business is losing money and it cannot change it's ways then it will go to the wall.

I know Ineos have a reputation for not being the best people to deal with but it does seem that they have been quite open about all this.

Finally Unite have said "Ooohhh they are not bluffing - can we do a takeback and sit down and talk again please we may have got it wrong?"

I do hope for the sake of the workers that they do resolve it so that the plant can stay open. 1800 staff and contractors is a lot of jobs to lose it the area if it all goes wrong.

Ian

[bobofinga]

Agree with everything you say Ian...

Unite have given the workers at Grangemouth terrible advice and basically sold them down the river.

I'd be very surprised if Ineos go back on their word.

I heard about 10,000 people are indirectly involved with the plant at Grangemouth so its a massive loss to the area.

My girlfriend stays near Grangemouth and it is a huge place. Will be a right eyesore if it goes as a right off..

[ETwhat?]

Having lived in Falkirk if there's suddenly 2,000 people out of work there's not going to be many other options available.

What's worse is that now if the company does decide to keep the plant or a buyer takes it on the staff will probably get a much worse deal than they would have had

at times it does seem that unions simply sit demanding more money or no changes without any real appreciation of real world pressures.

[Hatchorder]

Having lived in Falkirk if there's suddenly 2,000 people out of work there's not going to be many other options available.

What's worse is that now if the company does decide to keep the plant or a buyer takes it on the staff will probably get a much worse deal than they would have had

at times it does seem that unions simply sit demanding more money or no changes without any real appreciation of real world pressures.

The news on a report this morning is that up to 4000 jobs will be affected if just the petrochemical plant closes.

In the meantime there are a bunch of Unite Officials sat in a canoe on the edge of Niagara Falls who are back paddling furiously. I personally hope they all lose their jobs - but that is too hopeful. I have since discovered that Ineos had planned to invest ?300M to restructure the plants to deal with Shale Gas from the US as it was falling processing of North Sea Gas that was causing some of the problems, and they needed to restructure the organisation to put that investment in! Without spending that money it would have ground to a halt within 10 years.

There are a lot of highly paid numpties with egg on their faces this morning and behind them over a 1000 employees who have suddenly realised that brinkmanship does not work. They must be scared witless. I feel sorry for those who voted to accept the proposals.

Ian

[ETwhat?]

The news on a report this morning is that up to 4000 jobs will be affected if just the petrochemical plant closes.

In the meantime there are a bunch of Unite Officials sat in a canoe on the edge of Niagara Falls who are back paddling furiously. I personally hope they all lose their jobs - but that is too hopeful. I have since discovered that Ineos had planned to invest ?300M to restructure the plants to deal with Shale Gas from the US as it was falling processing of North Sea Gas that was causing some of the problems, and they needed to restructure the organisation to put that investment in! Without spending that money it would have ground to a halt within 10 years.

There are a lot of highly paid numpties with egg on their faces this morning and behind them over a 1000 employees who have suddenly realised that brinkmanship does not work. They must be scared witless. I feel sorry for those who voted to accept the proposals.

Ian

The investment has been well talked about, the only thing that has changed is that instead of waiting till 2017 to shut the plant if the changes weren't accepted they have moved it forward as the plant was already stopped after the nonsense they had about the union convener who seemed to get people into the idea that they should strike because he was being investigated for misconduct. which although it was called off they had already started the shut down.

I am tempted to go up this afternoon for a look, maybe it is time for another great Scottish work in

[Hatchorder]

So 2000 contractors not protected by Unite lose their jobs, the Union caves in and accepts that they were wrong and the rest of the staff breathe a sigh of relief because they still have jobs.....

But underneath it all let us not lose sight of the fact that Unite are responsible for 2000 jobs being lost - way to go Unite! What a bunch of Bar Stewards! There goes all your credibility....

Ian