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  • Brexit - What happens if no deal.

    The EU have a number of notices (68) regarding what will happen if a deal is not reached by March 29th. I noticed this one on seafarer qualification and certification. I thought it maybe of interest if you haven’t seen it.

    https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...ifications.pdf

    There are a few others all listed here. Including transport by sea
    https://ec.europa.eu/info/brexit/bre...ess-notices_en
    https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...-transport.pdf

    The UK will be issuing their own on Thursday. They still seem to think there will be a deal. So far it doesn’t seem to me that the EU likes anything the U.K. has put forward so far, and why should they. All it seems to have done is create lots of work for lawyers and ‘advisors’ of variations kinds, and given different MP’s the chance to snipe and point score more than normal. £/Euro not looking too healthy either!

    Living in what they describe as a ‘third country’ already, I can think of quite a number of things that you will miss the access to after Brexit that you have not had to think about for decades. Education and work being two big ones.
    Though customs and VAT and reclaiming of VAT- best of luck! If you are a business and want to claim back VAT as a third country it is I can tell you from experience very long and very costly to do. It will however give you a few more jobs!

    Travelling anywhere into the EU after could be a real nightmare, and transportation of goods by sea, well..... more paperwork?
    Question is will there be a second ref, or a ref on the deal offered?
    It might just be a very good idea before taking the plunge to do that, the first one never gave any real incite into what it meant, but seemed to me to be a series of the different groups using personality politics, with slogans that meant little, let alone inform.

  • #2
    If I'm reading the document regarding seafarer qualifications correctly, any UK certified officer will need to get a CeC from the EU vessels flag state, before they're legally allowed to sail on that vessel... Is this correct? My legalise is a tad rusty.

    Don't get me started on the Brexiteer brigade...
    Pointy bit is the front, blunt bit is the back... Simples!

    Will work for money/sea time.

    Comment


    • #3

      They currently have a list of third country CoCs that they accept. I expect the U.K. would want to be on that list, and have to go through whatever process the other countries did to get on it.
      Good luck if you want to search through the C series docs to find it!

      Or of course as part of the leaving process they could include things like CoC’s acceptance if they agree a deal.
      It also appears that whatever is in place now stays for the length of the endorsement, but if you move vessel and it’s another flag you lose that.

      As of the withdrawal date, the certificates issued to seafarers by the United Kingdom can no longer be presented for an 'endorsement attesting recognition' by an EU-27 Member State under Directive 2005/45/EC.
      The 'endorsement[s] attesting recognition' issued prior to the withdrawal date by EU- 27 Member States under Directive 2005/45/EC of certificates issued to seafarers by the United Kingdom will continue to be valid until their expiry. A master or an officer holding an 'endorsement attesting recognition' issued by a Member State will be able to continue working on board vessels flying the flag of that Member State. However, they will not be able to change and work on board a vessel flying the flag of another Member State on the basis of their existing UK-issued certificates, given that the basis for the recognition of their certificates by that Member State (Directive 2005/45/EC) would no longer be applicable.

      So best you ca. hope for is the agree a deal and that seafarer quals is included.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by MrStealth View Post
        If I'm reading the document regarding seafarer qualifications correctly, any UK certified officer will need to get a CeC from the EU vessels flag state, before they're legally allowed to sail on that vessel... Is this correct? My legalise is a tad rusty.

        Don't get me started on the Brexiteer brigade...
        So just like Denmark then?........for them you need to do the additional course and get a CeC.......so carry on as normal
        Trust me I'm a Chief.

        Views expressed by me are mine and mine alone.
        Yes I work for the big blue canoe company.
        No I do not report things from here to them as they are quite able to come and read this stuff for themselves.


        Twitter:- @DeeChief

        Comment


        • #5
          Surely with regard to CeCs the UK will follow whatever process countries like the Philippines already follow under STCW? The only difference would be that a UK citizen would no longer be eligible to serve as master on a Danish flag ship, for example?

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          • #6
            On Thursday you may get to find out what the UK will do re foreign seafarers qualifications being used in the UK post brexit without a deal.
            No idea Harmless, just came across it and posted up as thought it maybe of interest. There has been more focus on Boris and his cups of tea and The Mogg and him shifting his business interests out to Ireland so it stays in the EU than there has been about issues that effect people. Meanwhile the lady with the leopard print shoes. manages to carry on......

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            • #7
              The lack of coverage of anything useful is infuriating. But then, that's what the entire Leave argument seemed to be to me. I believe someone famous literally said "we can have our cake and eat it". The whole thing is based entirely outside the realms of reality as far as I can tell.

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              • #8
                What is the problem with having to get a CEC for working on EU ships? If they are willing to go through the process for every seafarer coming from Russia, Ukraine, India etc then I can't imagine it would be too much of a problem for the U.K.?

                I expect it would be more irritating to shipping lines that have put red flags on their ships to now have to go through the process for all the non-British officers they employ... hell, maybe it would encourage them to hire some Brits!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Brexit, no Brexit, it’s all the same. I think it’s a storm in a teacup. It will ultimately be in everyone’s interest to have a smooth exit. The UK as a net importer from Europe shouldn’t be underestimated.

                  As for recognition of CoC, the UK remains a white list country so it’s unlikely to be a major issue.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 06njack View Post
                    What is the problem with having to get a CEC for working on EU ships? If they are willing to go through the process for every seafarer coming from Russia, Ukraine, India etc then I can't imagine it would be too much of a problem for the U.K.?

                    I expect it would be more irritating to shipping lines that have put red flags on their ships to now have to go through the process for all the non-British officers they employ... hell, maybe it would encourage them to hire some Brits!
                    Hate to point out the obvious, but you currently require a CeC (otherwise referred to as Flag Endorsement by some countries, eg. Malta) to work on another EU countries flagged vessels anyway, so regardless of whether we're in the EU or not the process is the same. The UK is and will remain on pretty much every countries "white lists" and the whole process will continue to involve little more than you having to sign a form that your company then sends to the flag state, a few weeks later a certificate / card / booklet (depending on flag) rocks up.

                    The bigger threat to us is our incompetent MCA and their inability to process paperwork within 3 months!
                    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn’t do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.”

                    – Mark Twain
                    myBlog | @alistairuk | flickr | youtube Views and opinions expressed are those of myself and not representative of any employer or other associated party.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Interesting the government have given out a massive ferry contract to a brand new company with no history, no ships, no seafarers. I know there a lots of companies that run without "owning" any ships and surely this company plan to charter some ferries from somewhere instead, but surprised there weren't any established ferry companies better placed to take it on (I know DFDS and Brittany also got contracts but there are loads of others out there.)

                      Wonder how many British seafarers they plan to employ....

                      From the cruise side of things I heard a rumour a certain large European port had threatened to do full face to face immigration on everyone (like what happens when you go to the US) although I can't see how this would be practical given the short call times. By the time it was done it would be time to sail again! In the US we specifically have 2 days in the first port to allow for their immigration nonsense.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I have a UK primary CoC, with a Panamanian, a Liberian, a Bahamian, a Danish, a Norwegian, and a Gibraltan CeC (and a few more I can't even remember). Never had the honour of visiting many of these countries, I'm sure they are nice places though.

                        Considering most ships aren't flagged in EU anymore and that the rules regarding issuance of a CeC are governed by an international regulation called STCW and generally very few additional regulations or checks by the state issuing the CeC then I fail to understand what people are worried about.

                        Issuance of a CeC for almost all flag states is now simply a paperwork exercise and you can legally work on most vessels for 3 months having simply submitted the application and showing a letter to Port State (which they rarely check). This includes the UK flag state who issue more CeCs annually than CoCs.

                        What UK should do is remove all CeC from EU holders on UK vessels and replace them with British Citizen or Resident seafarers who hold a full UK CoC, as this would be legally allowed after Brexit. EU is going to do their best to make Brexit difficult for UK as Britain and continent have rarely agreed on anything hence all the wars over the last 1000 years, also therefore unlikely any useful deal will be made. Disagreement between France/Germany and UK is longstanding and goes way beyond boring economic rationalism. Countries have only been on good terms since US forced it upon us all after WW2, now we are headed back to old days and the historical norm which is conflict in one form or another.

                        The entire thing is a complete joke with any form of integrity lost many years ago. CeC and FoC System is simply designed to make things easy for shipowners, for example my Bahamas CeC says I am Swedish and my Panama CeC was issued off another CeC without ever sighting my actual CoC. Seriously doubt it would be hard to simply fraud everything and still work at sea without being caught.

                        Danish flag long ago stopped the requirement for Danish Master, this was pioneered by Torm.

                        I sometimes wonder why I myself didn't just get a Panamanian or Liberian CoC as nobody seems to care anyway. Most companies certainly stopped giving a sh1t many years ago, as many will certainly be testament to. Wasted a lot of money and time dealing with MCA and UK in general and most useful stuff was learnt on the ship not dicking around at college.

                        99% of industry don't care if you have a UK certificate.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I wrote that 18 months ago, the technical guidance issued in Nov are almost laughable if you read them now in relation to preparations if a No deal brexit. It seems to me the U.K. is no further forward with what it’s doing, but the amount of preparation it seems to me is not a great deal! Giving funds to EU company ferries.....and the only British one didn’t have any ships or a port that was capable, and now that option has gone too. What ever possessed them to have a referendum based on no facts as to what it would actually mean! The whole thing is a complete and utter shambles.
                          Well that’s my view of it, I’m sure other have their own. Anyway here is what there is if it helps!
                          https://www.gov.uk/government/public...no-brexit-deal

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                          • #14
                            Most flag States now have such low standards that they will just continue to issue CeC to anyone whether they are in EU or not. If any flag state makes it too difficult or tries to increase standards, simple, company just re flags vessels.

                            For example Ukraine is on IMO flag state blacklist but companies still prefer them over UK seafarers as they will work for 1/5 the cost.
                            ?
                            Government as usual is more interested in appeasing shipowners who don't want to loose their cheap Eastern European seafarers than looking out for holders of a UK CoC. Consideration for us, the people of Britain, is secondary as made clear in above notice. This is a good example of why people voted for Brexit without caring for the consequences.

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