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**EH75** · 27 October 2013, 06:08 PM

Interesting stuff Ian, thanks for putting that up. A good variety of ships compared to what some people get nowadays. How did the cadetship work back then compared to now? Were you still sponsored by the one company like now and therefore were all the ships you posted there owned by the same company or was it different? Mostly British crews with bars on board or was that starting to decline by that point?

Do you have any pictures that you took on board? Would be interesting to see some if so!

**Hatchorder** · 27 October 2013, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by EH75 View Post

Interesting stuff Ian, thanks for putting that up. A good variety of ships compared to what some people get nowadays. How did the cadetship work back then compared to now? Were you still sponsored by the one company like now and therefore were all the ships you posted there owned by the same company or was it different? Mostly British crews with bars on board or was that starting to decline by that point?

Do you have any pictures that you took on board? Would be interesting to see some if so!

The cadetship was for a minimum of 4 years and you had to have at least 20 months seatime to sit your orals. You started off by doing a 4 week induction. Then off to sea for a year, college for a year, sea for 14 months, college for 6 months (incuding final exams and orals) then back to sea for at least 6 months until you had completed your seatime.

Your cadetship was with one company, as now, except Trinity House - which was the same as now.

I was with Ocean Fleets. It was a Company that was made up of Blue Funnel and Elder Dempster Lines. (Patroclus, Myrmidon, City of London, Shonga, Nestor and Clytoneus). They were partners with P&O in OCL (Overseas Containel Lines) which were all the Bay boats (Remuera Bay). They also owned Ocean Inchcape (OIL) which were all the Anchor Handlers (Oil Harrier), and then finally they were partners in the Barber Blue Sea Lines which was the Barber Perseus. All in all I was exceptionally lucky to get such variety. They had a car carrier Helenus, which I did not get on, as well as a group of tankers that worked out of Libya (El Brega, Ras Lanuf).

All ships were British Officers, with British or Sierra Leone crews (Elder Dempsters) or Chinese crews on Blue Funnel ships. OIL was all British, as were OCL and Barber Lines. Yes they all had bars and plentiful crews (Usually about 26 on board) Steward service in the Saloon for the Officers and Stewards to look after Officers, laundry, cleaning, etc.

I am just about to scan in all my negatives from my days at sea and will post them up when I am done.

Ian

**chris** · 27 October 2013, 07:46 PM

Ive posted this elsewhere, but I really enjoyed the old tv series around the world in 80 days for a glimpse of the merchant navy in the late 80s. (all on youtube) He takes a ride on a german container ship across the atlantic i think.

**laura** · 27 October 2013, 11:16 PM

Really cool, thanks for sharing! Feeling ever so slightly jealous....

**Hatchorder** · 28 October 2013, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by laura View Post

Really cool, thanks for sharing! Feeling ever so slightly jealous....

I don't think you are wrong to be slightly jealous, and I am not smug when I say that. Ships with all British Officers were generally happy ships with a lot of fun thrown in, including bars, card nights, pub quizzes, horse racing nights, and tournaments once in a while, with a cinema night once a week run by cadets using a projector and films on big reels that you swapped every 4 months. Of course we had our share of muppets in the Officers, mostly down to alcohol, but runs ashore were sophisticated compared to runs ashore I hear of now. Mostly because we would have days in port so we had time to arrange things. I remember on my first trip in Pelembang we arranged a trip into the mountains to a monastery and hotel with a pool that a minibus of officers, cadets and wives went on, and we had to slow down for elephants in the road, swam in an elegant pool in the mountains in the middle of a rainstorm and sat and ate the best Nasi Goreng I have ever had looking out over the valleys and plantations. There was a bulker named the Theogenitor that was astern of us in one port in Indonesia that was loading bulk Palm Kernels from sacks! She was due to be in port for 8 weeks!

Food was usually good, but we had our share of crooked Chief Stewards, and I have told the story elsewhere of one who was known as "Bring 'em back alive Kelly". Typed menus on the table every day and drinks in the bar before dinner in the saloon served by white jacketed stewards - all very civilised.

Once you had passed your exams and orals you went back to sea to top up your seatime and so many captains gave you the 8-12 watch under their supervision. I loved the responsibility of it and it prepared me so much for my first job as 3/O and it gave the other Officers a chance to step up a watch to try out the watch without taking on the whole role, so the 3/O still did the firefighting and lifeboats etc.

But I don't think it was the heyday. I think that was 10 or more years before the advent of container ships. It was already in decline when I joined.

Then I look at the advances that make your life easier to see if there is anything that would make me jealous of what you have and I have to say "not a lot". A worldwide portfolio of charts was over 1000 charts and so corrections from Notices to Mariners were sometimes tedious when you had 8 weeks worth in one batch, (Including light signals and pilot books), but we did not have sat nav in the early days and yet we never got lost. Sometimes we might go a couple of days on DR positions because we could not get a sight, but at least we could navigate with basics and we never bumped into a coastline by accident. So I don't think ECDIS and Sat Nav are a fair trade off for what we had. We were there at the start of ARPA and it was a toy for us, we were fascinated by it, and yes it did enhance what we did, but I can remember a lecturer at college telling us that when radar came out everyone said there would be no more collisions and yet others said it was only a matter of time before there were radar assisted collisions because people did not understand them properly, and there were. When ARPA came out he said it would only be a matter of time before there was an ARPA assisted collision, and there was. Why do you think they still teach you how to do radar plotting?

I was also a sucker for Decca charts, they were so pretty! I still have a Decca Interpolator ruler!

Yes, comms is easier now, internet and email and facebook, but actually there was a lot of romanticism as a young man in getting 12 scented letters in one go in a port and taking days to read them all (I still have all of them in the loft as well!) Probably the married men would have liked the contact you can have now, but again I don't think it is worth the trade off.

Even the North Sea was a bit like pioneering. Standby boats were converted trawlers, Survey vessels were converted deep sea trawlers and the AB's and Bosuns were all ex deep sea fishermen.

There was also more involvement with your job. Cargoes loaded into tween decks and lashed with plywood and Spanish Windlasses, Cocoa Beans in sacks making the tween decks smell lovely but attracting the rats. Cases of Whisky being dropped to be drunk from pint mugs by stevadores in Tome, Boxes of shoes and t shirts broken into and stashed by the shore gangs to be collected on the way out, teams coming on to steam clean and wax tanks to carry liquid latex from Indonesia to Europe and the stench of ammonia when it was loaded, (yes we did get buckets of it and coat our hands by dipping them in 5 times to try and make our own gloves, we just forgot that the hairs on our hands were ripped out when we peeled it off). Yes there were bad jobs, sliding down the crane wires in a bosuns chair greasing them. Cleaning out the bilges in the holds when a cargo had leaked and rotted, chipping and painting for the whole first year at sea, putting on a BA mask supplied by hose and bellows and when they pumped the bellows the mask filled with small cockroaches, (they had made a nest in the pipe!), and ripping it off screaming whilst the crew rolled around the deck laughing until the tears ran down their faces, so it was not all glamorous, far from it.

So - given the choice, with everything else being equal, would I prefer to have my cadetship now to then - never in a million. Sorry - but I just look back with fondness and maybe the help of a pair of rose tinted glasses and think I had a great cadetship.

Ian

**Silvertop** · 28 October 2013, 06:41 PM

The Nestor became the LNG Port Harcourt in 1991 when it became part of the Nigeria LNG fleet. I sailed as first trip Chief
Officer on her in 2000/2001. She is still running to this day but I believe her days are numbered!!

**EH75** · 28 October 2013, 06:57 PM

This is fascinating stuff, thanks for posting. I would agree with you that back then sounds like a much better time to do your cadetship. Yeah maybe its easier now in certain respects with modern communication and navigation methods but is it as much fun? Doesn't sound like it. And all the modern navigation methods are eroding away the traditional skills and people are becoming over reliant on technology as we all know. Anyway, very jealous.

**laura** · 28 October 2013, 08:22 PM

I think the guys who sailed back then, really were proper seamen. I feel a big chunk of that skill has been lost with technology and a core British crew... I sometimes feel like I'm just scraping at the barrel in comparison and spend too much time in front of a damn computer!

I was hearing from an old bosun who'd sailed back in the 70s... just sounds amazing in the way you've described what a life. What makes me sad is that a lot of the guys who are replacing British crews hate being at sea and are only doing it for the money, and when I think of how enthusiastic my British cadets are... ach still.

It's great to be at sea, there's nothing better than watching the coast disappear.

Thanks for sharing again.

**Hatchorder** · 28 October 2013, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by Silvertop View Post

The Nestor became the LNG Port Harcourt in 1991 when it became part of the Nigeria LNG fleet. I sailed as first trip Chief
Officer on her in 2000/2001. She is still running to this day but I believe her days are numbered!!

Wow! Small world. She was the ship that broke Ocean Fleets to my mind. 2 ships build Nestor and Gastor, laid up after launch, back to St Nazaire for refit of all the gas tanks because of construction errors, laid up for years in Loch Striven. I think she cost 50 million and sold for 15 never having carried a cargo. Nigeria bought her - refitted her to bring her up to date, back into lay up and then went into service some time later.

She was state of the art when she was built - was she up to date when you sailed on her? I have photos of the cargo control room in lay up, was it all refitted? I am jealous you sailed on her in the real world.

Ian

**HarmlessWeasel** · 28 October 2013, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by laura View Post

I think the guys who sailed back then, really were proper seamen.

I agree to the extent that my limited knowledge allows me, but to play devil's advocate, isn't that exactly what was said of the windjammers when steamers came into being? What makes it different to this change in the way we sail?

**laura** · 29 October 2013, 01:30 AM

Well I think the job is still demanding but the focus has shifted, I spend a good part of my day doing admin or paperwork when ideally I would be out on deck.

Cadetships before were longer, time at sea was longer. You ever see wire spliced onboard your ship? You ever see rope properly whipped or is it just taped... the small things that require experience and skill... navigating without electronic aids... repairs that now need shoreside certification... the dumbing down and condensing of training... forecasting weather, we just use the internet and so on. I've had cadets who can't tie a bowline after six months at sea- that kind of thing. Progression through the ranks is faster and a lot of experience lost.

Definitely I'm all for progression, we have to move forward not back in life. I'm not saying we don't have other considerations these days... I have to be a blinkin expert in all sorts of computer software and electronics as well as a hell of a lot of other equipment, don't get me started on the HSE side.... but I think that some of the real hands on stuff is being lost, proper ropework, rigging, small boat handling (one lifeboat launch every 3 months... does not make for competence) and so on, cargo work is something else (although I would say different skills), these guys could do things properly, nature of the beast, they had to, the technology wasn't there.

But... I'm not lamenting the old days, just think these guys had more real practical seamanship skills, we have a lot more technology to do the work for us now. And it's not all bad.

**Chiefy** · 29 October 2013, 09:57 AM

Oh Loch Striven, that place is fun filled :-)

Was there on the B's that had a little rest a couple of years ago, before having a teddy throwing session and getting sent back to sea

First ship....Direct Kookaburra, was.......Moreton Bay, originally a steamer but converted to deisel during the "crisis" She was a baby bay, under deck blown air reefer in 2 hatches, proper valve compartments, 2 of the biggest stores cranes you ever did see, and a swimming pool, though in ALL the years I went on the baby bays we only ever used it once, the rest of the time there was either a new economiser waiting for fitting, or an old one awaiting disposal, for fun one trip there was most of a generator engine

Cast of thousands, all officers had a bath and shower and double bed.....oh those where the days....Piggy Grant and Chrome Dome where a fearsome capt / old man combo....one was told to cut down on the vodka so switched to red wine.........not sure it worked though

**Silvertop** · 29 October 2013, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by Hatchorder View Post

Wow! Small world. She was the ship that broke Ocean Fleets to my mind. 2 ships build Nestor and Gastor, laid up after launch, back to St Nazaire for refit of all the gas tanks because of construction errors, laid up for years in Loch Striven. I think she cost 50 million and sold for 15 never having carried a cargo. Nigeria bought her - refitted her to bring her up to date, back into lay up and then went into service some time later.

She was state of the art when she was built - was she up to date when you sailed on her? I have photos of the cargo control room in lay up, was it all refitted? I am jealous you sailed on her in the real world.

Ian

The Gastor became the LNG Lagos! also on her last legs, or at least in the plan for recycling!! They spent a lot of money upgrading them about 5 years ago including a lot of computerisation, but they are old girls and prone to problems now. When I was on her the cargo control room was still the old version, I do think a proper mimic board looks good in a CCR, although I am a bit of a techie and like the advancements we have but some things are unbeatable!!

thee were lots of upgrades/changes when she they were reactivated. They removed the ability to carry LPG, so the machinery rooms for the compressors becomes store rooms on deck. The Suez locker was converted to a gymnasium.

i am trying to find some photos but pre digital camera they could be anywhere in the house!!! If I don't post any soon it may be that I have got lost in the loft!!

**Hatchorder** · 29 October 2013, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by laura View Post

Cadetships before were longer, time at sea was longer. You ever see wire spliced onboard your ship? You ever see rope properly whipped or is it just taped... the small things that require experience and skill....

We had to know how to splice 3 stranded rope, 8 strand mooring line and braidline (The one I hated!). We had to splice wire with Liverpool Splice, Staggered splice, and be able to do a west coast taper. Whippings were either common, sailmakers or west country. I remember pulling my 8 inch spike out of my pouch and the bosun rolling around laughing and pulling out a 2 ft spike and telling me to throw mine overboard - he was right!

Originally posted by laura View Post

I've had cadets who can't tie a bowline after six months at sea- that kind of thing.

Before my lad went off on phase 1 he could do all the common knots blindfolded, do an eye splice and a dog's cock and whip it. (Settle down weasel!) When he did his EDH he was so quick the tutor asked him to help him teach the others and then taught him how to do a Turk's Head for fun. I think they are basic skills that EVERY Deckie should know very early.

Originally posted by laura View Post

But... I'm not lamenting the old days, just think these guys had more real practical seamanship skills, we have a lot more technology to do the work for us now. And it's not all bad.

Totally agree. Technology does make it easier, but let's not lose sight of the fact that we need some of the old skills still. Great to hear my lad helped the crew make a new pilot ladder on his first trip.

Originally posted by Chiefy View Post

Oh Loch Striven, that place is fun filled :-)

Not sure we are talking about the same place - real sh1thole from memory! LOL - I know you were kidding - right?

Originally posted by Chiefy View Post

First ship....Direct Kookaburra, was.......Moreton Bay, originally a steamer but converted to diesel during the "crisis" She was a baby bay, under deck blown air reefer in 2 hatches, proper valve compartments, 2 of the biggest stores cranes you ever did see, and a swimming pool.....

Remuera bay was a twin screw steamer converted to single screw Diesel with a super long stroke Sulzer engine done by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and we had a guarantee engineer on board for a whole year with no leave!

Originally posted by Chiefy View Post

Cast of thousands, all officers had a bath and shower and double bed.....oh those where the days....Piggy Grant and Chrome Dome where a fearsome capt / old man combo....one was told to cut down on the vodka so switched to red wine.........not sure it worked though

Just found a crew list for the Patroclus (13,456 tons DWT). Captain, C/O, 2/O, 3/O, Radio Officer, Ch Eng, 2/E, 3/E, 3/E, 4/E, Snr Electrician, Electrician, Catering Officer, 2 x cadet Officers (Phase 4's) 2 x Senior Midshipman, 5 Midshipmen (Phase 2's), 2 x Egr Cadets, Bosun, Carpenter, 6 AB's, ER Headman, 2 Fitters, 2 Greasers, Chief Cook, 2nd Cook, 2nd Steward, 4 Assistant Stewards.

44 crew - excluding 3 wives that were onboard!

My cadet cabin on the Myrmidon was a large cabin with a double bed and a bathroom with separate bath and shower.

Originally posted by Silvertop View Post

When I was on her the cargo control room was still the old version, I do think a proper mimic board looks good in a CCR, although I am a bit of a techie and like the advancements we have but some things are unbeatable!!

I will try and find the right negs to scan in and post them.

Ian

Patroclus1.jpg
Name:	MV Patroclus (GRWE)	Year Built:	1966
Length O A:	558? 4?	Breadth:	76? 9?
Summer Draft:	33?6?	Summer Freeboard:	10?9?
Deadweight:	13456 tons	Grain Capacity:	7422 Ft³
Liquid Capacity:	116915 Ft³	Refrigerated Capacity:	25142 Ft³
Engine Type:	Sulzer 9RD 90	Output:	13,230 kW
Main Boiler:	Thom Lamont	Aux Boiler:	Stones
Bunker Capacity:	1794 tons	Daily Consumption:	55 tons
Service Speed:	21.7 knots	Anchor weight:	3.5 tons
Cargo Equipment:
10 x 5 ton SWL Derricks, 2 x 10 ton SWL Derricks, 6 x 5 ton SWL cranes, 1 x Stulken 60 ton SWL Derrick, 2 x 10 ton SWL Scott Electrical Winches. 10 x 5 ton SWL Scott Electrical Winches.
Bridge Equipment:
Sal Log, 2 x Decca TM620 Radars, Arma Brown Mk 1c Gyro, Sealand 30 VHF, Kelvin Hughes Mk 3 Echo Sounder, Arkas Denmark No 8 Auto Pilot, MK 12 Decca, Marconi Lodestar IIID D.F.

Myrmidon.jpg
Name:	MV Myrmidon (GYIV)	Year Built:	1980
Length O A:	164.57m	Breadth:	26.06m
Summer Draft:	10.66m	Summer Freeboard:	3.58m
Deadweight:	21215 tonnes	Grain Capacity:	30514 m³
Liquid Capacity:	Nil	Refrigerated Capacity:	Nil
Engine Type:	Scott Sulzer 7RND/M76	Output:	12528 kW
Main Boiler:	Cochran Vertical oil fired Diesecon Economiser
Bunker Capacity:	1650 tonnes	Daily Consumption:	56 tonnes
Service Speed:	18 knots	Anchor weight:	6.45 tonnes
Cargo Equipment:
1 x 5 tonne Derrick, 1 x 10 tonne Derrick, 5 x 22 tonne Derrick, 3 x 35 tonne Derrick, Clarke & Chapman Electric Winches, MacGrecor chain driven hatch covers
Bridge Equipment:
Sagem Electro Magnetic Log, Decca Radars 1630C (10cm) and 1626C (3cm), Sperry Mk 37 Gyros, Redifon Sealand 66 & 30 VHF, Kelvin Hughes Echo Sounder, Magnavox MX1102 Sat Nav, Marconi Lodestar IIID DF, Mk 21 Decca Navigator.

Clytoneus.jpg
Name:	MT Clytoneus (GUWG)	Year Built:	1976
Length O A:	210.3m	Breadth:	32.25m
Summer Draft:	12.42m	Summer Freeboard:	3.88m
Deadweight:	56,048 tonnes	Grain Capacity:	Nil
Liquid Capacity:	73,717 m³	Refrigerated Capacity:	Nil
Engine Type:	B&W 7K80 GF	Output:	13780 kW
Boilers:	2 x Cornertube Double Evaporation
Bunker Capacity:	3479 tonnes	Daily Consumption:	60 tonnes
Service Speed:	16 knots	Anchor weight:	8.8 tonnes
Cargo Equipment:
4 x Worthington Simpson 1200m³ / hr cargo pumps, 4 x Worthington Simpson vac strip pumps, ABS main flue / boiler flue inert gas generator, 2 x 10 tonne SWL derricks with Pusnes winches.
Bridge Equipment:
Sperry Electromagnetic log, Marconi Radiolocator 16 Radar, Racal Decca ARPA Radar, Arma Brown Mk 10 Gyros, Marconi Westminster and Argonaut VHF, 2 x Kelvin Hughes Echo Sounder, Mk 21 Decca Navigator, Magnavox MX1242 Sat Nav, Marconi Lodestar IIID DF.

Nestor.jpg
Name:	LNG Nestor (ZCLP)	Year Built:	1977
Length O A:	274.42m	Breadth:	42m
Summer Draft:	12.0m	Summer Freeboard:	9.21m
Deadweight:	78641 tonnes	Grain Capacity:	Nil
Liquid Capacity:	122,500 m³	Refrigerated Capacity:	122,500 m³ @ -160 ^oC
Engine Type:	Stal-Laval Steam Turbine	Output:	30,800 kW
Main Boilers:	2 x Foster Wheeler ESD III dual fuel monowall
Bunker Capacity:	DO 319 m³ FO 6577 m³	Daily Consumption:	168 tonnes
Service Speed:	18 knots	Anchor weight:	16.1 tonnes
Cargo Equipment:
10 x Carter Cryogenic 900 m³ cargo pumps, 7 x Carter cryogenic 15 m³ stripping pumps, 2 x Carter 320 m³ emergency pumps, 6 x Glycol barrier pumps, 28,900 litre CO2 flood system, 3 x Halon flood systems, 2 x 3t SWL hydraulic cranes, 1 x 5t SWL electric crane,
Bridge Equipment:
Raytheon DSL200 Doppler Log, Kelvin Hughes SD23 Radar, Raytheon ARPA Radar, Anschultz Gyros, 4 x Redifon Sealand VHF (3 x 66, 1 x 30), Kelvin Hughes Echo Sounder, Marconi Lodestar IIID DF

Remuera.jpg
Name:	MV Remuera Bay (GQHC)	Year Built:	1973
Length O A:	251.3m	Breadth:	32.1m
Summer Draft:	11.03m	Summer Freeboard:	5.65m
Deadweight:	32713 Tonnes	TEU Capacity:	2058 TEU?s
Liquid Capacity:	Nil	Refrigerated Capacity:	1151 air blown 50 electric
Engine Type:	Mitsubishi Sulzer 9RTAZ6	Output:	21,780 kW
Main Boiler:	2 x oil fired Alborg
Bunker Capacity:	IFO 706t HFO 6990t	Daily Consumption:	85 tonnes
Service Speed:	21 knots	Anchor weight:	10 tonnes
Cargo Equipment:

Bridge Equipment:
Jungner Sal Log, Kelvin Hughes 16 Radpack Radar, Kelvin Hughes Anticol Radar, Sperry Mk 37 Gyro?s, 3 x ITT STR 67 VHF, Marconi Marine Seagraph 3 Echo Sounder, Wherefinder II Sat Nav, Mk 21 Decca Navigator, Marconi Lodestar IIID DF.

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Ships of the 80's that I did my cadetship on.

Ships of the 80's that I did my cadetship on.

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Harrier.jpg
Name:	MV Oil Harrier (GUXY)	Year Built:	1973
Length O A:	61.3m	Breadth:	13.0m
Summer Draft:	4.88m	Summer Freeboard:	3.23m
Deadweight:	1038 tonnes	Cement/mud Capacity:	6004 ft³
Brine Capacity:	500 tonnes	Deck Capacity:	650 tonnes
Engine Type:	2 x Mirlees KM8 Major	Output:	6025 kW
Bunker Capacity:	580 tonnes	Daily Consumption:	22 tonnes
Service Speed:	15 knots	Anchor weight:	1.36 tonnes
Cargo Equipment:
1 x Van der Girssen 300 tonne anchor handling / towing winch, 1 x Towing drum with 1820m of 52mm diam cable, powered spare towing drum 1820m of 52mm diam cable, 2 x work drums 610m x 52mm diam, 2 x powered spare pennant spools 460m x 38mm diam, 1 x 10t & 1 x 5t tuggger winches, hydraulic shark jaw and towing pins, 2 x Ingersoll Rand 540 m³ compressor driven cargo pumps.
Bridge Equipment:
Decca RM1216 Radar, Decca 914 Radar, Arma Brown Mk10 Gyro?s, ITT STR 65 VHF, Kelvin Hughes Pentland Bravo MF / HF radio, Simrad Kelvin Hughes MS 37 Echo Sounder, Mk 21 Decca Navigator, Marconi Lodestar IIID DF.