Are Cadets being let down and poorly trained? Thoughts, views and experiences please.

[chris]

Panama the quality flag... I heard they don't have enough staff on their books for the number of ships they've registered.

Thats why this accident report was so delayed wasn't it?

https://www.nautilusint.org/News-and-Events/Pages/article.aspx?newsid=560

[GuinnessMan]

No I'm not saying that.

Yes I have actually looked into it a while back when she appeared here, and yes the owner of TMT is in court in the US for bankruptcy I read.

Why won't Panama release the report on the Danny FII still then? She was lost four years ago.

No idea. There may still be some litigation or other court issues going on. Sometimes these things can take years to resolve.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

[GuinnessMan]

The 'Donald Duckling' tied up on the Tyne right now which says they can't be that strict?! Or does it just happen to attract irresponsible owners due to its low cost?

Just having a cold shower after getting severely burned by GM....

So your proof that Panama is not a very strict flag is based on the detaining of......one ship? Panama are fairly strict, but if you have a large enough ship register then some will, sadly, slip through the cracks as you can't do constant inspections on all of them. It's what PSC, Class and even the damned management company is for! Blaming the flag for the poor management of vessel's is a bloody cop out. I've sailed on a UK flagged vessel that a thorough PSC inspection would have detained immediately, does that mean our flag is crap?

Also, if you'd bothered to actually look a bit more into it, you'd notice that they are owned by Nobu Su's TMT group, the same group that has gone bankrupt (again!?) and has had issues with his ships all over the world. Why do you think no business will go near him with a sh*tty stick and the conditions on his ship's go from being good/alright to poor very quickly.

Edited to add: I've been told that my 4 month comment sounded a bit flippant, as if I was brushing him off. That was not the intention and I do apologies if it sounded that way. However, I deal with flags and the class societies near enough every day, which is a lot more than your average seafarer who will only see them a handful of times per year, so it means I have more experience as to what each flag tends to be like and whilst Panama is not exactly my favourite, they're certainly not the worst out there.

[GuinnessMan]

I know what you mean, no obviously I haven't had any dealings with flag authorities, I'm just commenting with what was discussed at the meeting. And Panama was called a flag of convenience. If it is much stricter then why would so many companies use it though?

I knew I would come in for some stick for being new to the industry but I'm just using what was discussed and I thought asking on here for peoples experiences that I can feedback to the group involved (Who are senior officers and experienced cadets) and would help us in following up with the minister.

Simple, their tonnage tax is lower than ours, however their maritime authority tend to be much stricter and, to be honest, a bit more of a pain in the a*se to deal with when it comes to likes of certificates and inspections. From experience, I tend to prefer the Marshall Islands Flag (ran by IRI) as they tend to be fairly good, decent inspections and generally good easy to work with when it comes to the likes of armed guards and dispensations (others throw up lots of barriers or are just unwilling to assist you in any way).

[Midge]

Education has moved on there are vocational degrees as well as the traditional academic types.
You need to have the argument with the HR Depts and Industry heads as the requirements normally come from there.
Qualification inflation has been going on for decades, O levels used to be enough, for a lot of jobs long apprenticeships. Then you needed A levels if you wanted to get past the junior jobs, then a degree, now they prefer 2:1 or above. Anything really senior quite often they are looking for a masters.
Constant CPD is also looked for the more competitive the job market is in an area the more it spirals.
So I can see why the FD and Hons top up is offered, the colleges offer what the industry ask for, they have to make a course that can be validated.
I don't doubt there are young people who would be just as able who don't have any qualifications. The question then is why don't they have them, the majority have the same opportunities to gain them.
If the colleges are not turning out people educated to the required level the industry has to get it changed, be that a higher entrance standard, a longer course, different content, or a higher pass rate. Same goes for training at sea if what is coming out is not upto scratch, then you need to look at the input, as we have seen the input is not consistent. There is no quality control checks or balances with the input when cadets are at sea. Only the output after i.e what they report back, and what's ticked in their TRB, any other negative reports back by the cadets whilst at sea will depend on their confidence that it will improve things, it will be listened to, they will believed, they will not suffer any consequences or be viewed as a difficult pain in the backside.
You also have to remember many are very young, some would still be doing A levels with a bunch of close friends, teachers and family around to help encourage and support them. Even those at college full time doing normal course have family and friends and college support systems if they have a problem. Some cadets have email only, its a big change for many to make, even when things are going well.
Now I have a headache!

[GuinnessMan]

Then the ships reflag to Panama because it's cheaper and the British government don't get any Tax

Pretty much.

if a company wishes to fly a quality flag

Are you saying that Panama, historically a much stricter Flag than UK, is not a quality flag? With all due respect, in your 4 months of experience, have you had much communication or dealings with Flag Authorities? Malta is another of what folks would call a Flag of Convenience, but their safety guys are much much stricter than our own! (Trust me! One of them has royally annoyed me in the past!)

I tried registering a ship to Liberia the other night, quite easy, just type in how much DWT and it gives you a price. Nice.

Sorry, but that means precisely nothing at all. It's not like you register all your details and pay with a credit card. Having actually registered ships with Liberia, you still have to follow all the same proceadures that you would do if you were to register with the UK Flag. You still have to fill in all the paperwork, you still have to have a IACS Approved Class Society, you still have to do all your ISM/ISSC audits, Marine Inspections, etc. That form is there to provide a rough guide only and to be honest it's just there to save the folks at the maritime administration time. If you want to know the class fees for the likes of Malta, you have to email a set of Lawyers and get them to find out, HK you have to email them to ask but you can get a rough idea from just filling in ships information into Marshall Islands and Liberia.

I couldn't agree more chiefy, I think our jobs are technical, but I wouldn't say we work at a degree level. Doctors and lawyers should have degrees, not us seafarers I have heard of people being told by college the FD Course was a "Fast track to master of Chief engineer" and I think this really upsets people when they walk onto the ship on their "fast track" programme with all the new knowledge of ballast systems etc and they don't get to play with any of the toys

Fast Track, now that's my blood pressure going up a notch or two....

[Martyboy]

I couldn't agree more chiefy, I think our jobs are technical, but I wouldn't say we work at a degree level. Doctors and lawyers should have degrees, not us seafarers I have heard of people being told by college the FD Course was a "Fast track to master of Chief engineer" and I think this really upsets people when they walk onto the ship on their "fast track" programme with all the new knowledge of ballast systems etc and they don't get to play with any of the toys

[Chiefy]

He he He

Degrees in general I kind of agree with, the FD I do not see the point of at all, sorry but I dont, I WILL however help and teach any cadet who pitches up and not hold it agaisnt them for what is happening in the education world......thye are victims too.

The whole everyone should have a degree just winds me right up, The birghtest and smartest did degrees, the not so did HND/C, the less CIty and Guilds etc,
I mean does my hirdresser cut my hair better cos she has a degree? Do TV Production runners really need a degree JUST to get in the door etc? I can see the point of vocational degrees or as it is the OU, it's summat you pick up along the way, like athletes foot or verucas

Oh bloody hell it's happened again.....heads for a lie down

[Midge]

I think this thread is a bit much for Chiefys blood pressure.
I wonder if some of the problems are caused because of what new cadets and potential cadets expect?
If the adverts had less of the wonderful training bit, maybe they wouldn't be so disappointed?
That of course does not excuse the abysmal lack of training and support some get, whilst on sea phases, the lack of contact from their companies, especially the first phase. I'm not that sure what they get in between is that good either. Maybe some never get as far as failing their MCA orals as they give in before ever reaching them?
My views are well documented too, and I'm not the only parent that thinks the same way either.
Now I can join Chiefy as my blood pressure is rising!

[Chiefy]

Are Cadets being let down? Possibly, in some areas, my thoughts on the whole inflation of qualifications is on record and well known, however, FD's are here to stay even if this grumpy stick in the mud thinks it's a retro-grade step designed to pander to the educational wets where no one ever fails anything ever. They have added stuff to bulk up the course and shortened it to make it more intense, but that is just making stuff pretty.

See...seeee even that sets me off!!!!!

As for being 4 months in and thinking these things, well it is safe to say the Honeymoon for you is over, if the training is of such low quality then many of you would / will fail the exams and th MCA exams, this appears not to be the case, the companies would revolt, not all but yours certainly would, which reminds me.....if it is that piss poor, drop a line to the people concerned voicing your concerns if it's a college issue. Otherwise if you think the whole system is flawed, well done, so does everyone else, but like many such systems we muddle along

Contacting your MP, thats assuming he / she even knows there are Seafarers still and what it is we do, most are like every other normal person "Sea Blind".

Our system is a bit flawed, but tyr the other systems, where they dont see a ship for the entire cadetship, then need to find a company after the degree, or have to act as office runners for a shipping company in order to gain favour and a possition, or are so highly qualified they demand the highest wages and as such there are only few of them at sea, or those who treat it as a paramilitary organisation but have to have protectionist laws and subidies to enable their employment and ship registration.

See no system is perfect

[Steve]

1) I know the Tanker's require all the officers to have done the type approved courses, anyone know if it's required for all ships yet?

2)chart corrections no excuse whatsoever for the JO's not knowing how to do that or being able to show you that. It's the bare basics I believe

1) Since the introduction of ECDIS as a replacement for paper charts there has been a requirement for all deck officers on ships where ECDIS is the primary means of navigation to have both generic ECDIS training and type-specific training for the specific ECDIS model fitted on their ship.

2) Have these officers sailed on paperless ships throughout their training and career? Not an impossibility today. They may only have encountered paper charts in college (if at all).

But it obviously doesn't matter what the law requires, the standard of officer on the OP's ship is evidently abysmal.

[PatrickW]

Well we have plenty of Merchant seafarers due to the Smart scheme, just not all of them are working. All I can say is, if it would make the money then they'd have done it already

Arrghhhh grumble grumble...!

[Martyboy]

Well we have plenty of Merchant seafarers due to the Smart scheme, just not all of them are working. All I can say is, if it would make the money then they'd have done it already

[PatrickW]

The whole "Country is skint and we need money" thing is the governments incentive. They don't care how well trained you are really, or if you work on a British flagged ship, or if you work at all, it's not like they get any tax from your earnings

Indirectly they would though... and surely it is in the national interest to maintain a pool of Merchant Seafarers and UK flagged ships. Or so they tell us, they only really care about RBS...

[Martyboy]

The whole "Country is skint and we need money" thing is the governments incentive. They don't care how well trained you are really, or if you work on a British flagged ship, or if you work at all, it's not like they get any tax from your earnings