Are Cadets being let down and poorly trained? Thoughts, views and experiences please.

[Alighieri]

I am a phase 4 cadet with only 2 months sea time left.

Mainly as I have looked back on my cadetship, I feel that I have been poorly guided and managed throughout.
It seems to me that cadets are just an extra pair of hands without a voice. Im currently on my 3rd ship. My first ship was a good experience however my last ship and now the one I am on now is a nightmare. I think that the more I speak to fellow class mates and read posts here I am not alone with my views. Im not naming names of companies, especially Norwegian car shipping company that would have the initials WW.
Ive been asking captains, c/o and all junior officers for help. Mainly, the response from captain is, "ask C/O" and then the response from c/o is "ask 2nd or 3rd and when you ask them the claim not to know... Once again im not naming nationalities of the officers who adore Pacquiao and eat only rice and fish. This had been the story through the majoity of my cadetship. Now I appreciate there is an element of reading up, but somethings surely we should have help with. Ive got officers claiming not to know about how to work the ECDIS, do chart corrections, and have less knowledge than me of LSA and FFA. Is this right?

Other things that concern me are the following.
Being a lookout and not being allowed to ask questions
Being on ramp duty.
Not allowed to do things due to "company policy"
Cadets are only allowed to watch and not do? (If I pass my orals, can you imagine being on the bridge as a 3/0 and having to ask the captain up to show you how to do the most basic of things?)
They give you nothing to motivate you. Which I think is terrible.

Anyways. Rant over for the time being. Ill add more maybe later.

[Clanky]

Oh dear, sounds like you have had a bad time.

I hope this is a rare case, but as you say there are other tales on here of similar treatment. It does happen and to be honest I'm not sure that I know the answer either in the short or long term.

One thing I would say though, as you have so carefully "not named" the company involved I hope that your screen name is as anonymous as it looks. You don't want your hard time at sea compounded by getting grief from the company for naming and shaming them online.

Have you spoken to your training officer about your concerns? (company training officer rather than DSTO)

The other thing I would suggest if you don't feel that you can approach the company now is to wait until you have qualified and then speak to them about your treatment as a cadet (whether or not you are still employed by them)

Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss anything in more detail than you feel you can on a public forum.

[Martyboy]

It differs from company to company, I have heard some horror stories but luckily haven't had much of an issue myself. The company I work for seem to have a good training culture on the vessels and towards the end I was more or less given my own watch while the old man done some paper work in the background, but everything was very hands on. Not really sure what you can do other than read up and make the most of the bad situation.

[JonathanI]

Being a cadet you tend to be at the bottom of the work load. The chief has a lot to do and if he doesn't want to train you then he is not going too.

You are not in an Isolated case ! I have been on ships where the OOW has turned up drunk. The OOW couldn't speak or understand English. The OOW failed to call the captain when we received a distress I had to persuade him to call the captain. Unfortunately it seems now a day that there is a lot more "tax cadet companies". You are only onboard for them to make money. The best way is to train yourself and ask other cadets when you get back from your sea phase ! Read books when you are in the library ask the lecturers at college.

[water witch]

You are not alone and being at the bottom of the pile notwithstanding, it is wrong that some cadets are having this experience under the guise of a training scheme. There should be more quality control.

[Martyboy]

I think tonnage tax should require companies to employ the officers they train for a period of time, this will mean people get sea time but also means the companies may take more interest in the standard of training as the cadets of today will be the companies future officers I know it isn't likely to happen but it'd be good if it did

[laura]

Sorry to hear your cadetship's been like this. I know there's a lot of guys out there who've had a hard time of it and it's very frustrating to see this happen again and again. The other thing is that when you're in that sort of situation, it's pretty hard to see the light cause it feels so encompassing, it is pretty much your life and it feels like there's nothing you can do to sort it out, stuck working under these guys.

Don't let it kill your moral, it's a cadetship, only a cadetship, there's life in the MN after being a cadet.

Try and pick up as much as possible, read manuals, if people aren't helping you onboard, you'll need to fill as much of the gaps as possible. If there's something you really feel unconfident in... you're going to have to get stuck in as much as you can yourself. Be annoying, look over the mates shoulder, bug the bosun to let you help out. If this proves difficult onboard, is there a lecturer back at college who could show you an equivalent in the simulator, or college mates to hit things off of?

If the mates don't know anything about ECDIS or FFA (this does happen) then make sure you are better than that! Find the manuals, start making passage plans.... start seeing how things work.

Sometimes a barrier can often be cultural, a lack of understanding on someone's part, is there another nationality onboard similar to yours, somebody to talk to or get advice on dealing with stuff.

Sometimes a wake up call is shoving your Trb politely in the Chief Mates direction and saying... I need to know this before i leave- help! I once had an officer say that I was lucky to be on the bridge at all as it wasn't always like that in his country, some cadets didn't get up there till they were thirds... then I explained I needed six months watchkeeping to get a British ticket. If it helps to say 'yes it's stupid but I need to learn it...', beg, borrow or steal the knowledge and help you need if the crew really aren't interested a bit of guilt sometimes helps.


I hope things improve, and feel your frustration, but try not to let it get you down too much, you've got this far and survived and when you qualify you work for someone who is interested in you.

If you want to have a rant, can always PM me, I don't care who you are and won't judge you, been in a similar situation.

[GuinnessMan]

I am a phase 4 cadet with only 2 months sea time left.

Mainly as I have looked back on my cadetship, I feel that I have been poorly guided and managed throughout. I felt the same to be honest and I know exactly where you're coming from

It seems to me that cadets are just an extra pair of hands without a voice. Im currently on my 3rd ship. My first ship was a good experience however my last ship and now the one I am on now is a nightmare. I think that the more I speak to fellow class mates and read posts here I am not alone with my views. Im not naming names of companies, especially Norwegian car shipping company that would have the initials WW.

Ive been asking captains, c/o and all junior officers for help. Mainly, the response from captain is, "ask C/O" and then the response from c/o is "ask 2nd or 3rd and when you ask them the claim not to know... Asking the Captain about things is not something I would normally do, particularly in ports, as normally everyone and it's dog is asking him or her for things and trying to talk to him. The C/O as your DSTO should be the one to help you, but if they're lazy or not interested then that doesn't help things at all. What sort of questions did the JO's not know the answers to?

Once again im not naming nationalities of the officers who adore Pacquiao and eat only rice and fish. This had been the story through the majoity of my cadetship. Now I appreciate there is an element of reading up, but somethings surely we should have help with. Ive got officers claiming not to know about how to work the ECDIS I know the Tanker's require all the officers to have done the type approved courses, anyone know if it's required for all ships yet?, do chart corrections no excuse whatsoever for the JO's not knowing how to do that or being able to show you that. It's the bare basics I believe, and have less knowledge than me of LSA and FFA Worrying as they're supposed to maintain it. Is this right?

Other things that concern me are the following.
Being a lookout and not being allowed to ask questions Then what is the point of having you there then? It strikes me as being a waste of time
Being on ramp duty Why exactly? You'll have to do cargo watches on other ships and that's technically what you're doing on a car carrier. If it's the gangway watch, well, we all had the *****y jobs at some point in our cadetship
Not allowed to do things due to "company policy" Depends on what these things are. Not many things a cadet can't really do whilst on board
Cadets are only allowed to watch and not do? (If I pass my orals, can you imagine being on the bridge as a 3/0 and having to ask the captain up to show you how to do the most basic of things?)
They give you nothing to motivate you. Which I think is terrible. What sort of things should they do? You do need to have a fair amount of self-motivation within this industry

Anyways. Rant over for the time being. Ill add more maybe later.

As the others have said, you're not the first in this position and, sadly, won't be the last. Some of it I can sympathize with, some of it I can understand. I've put my comments in bold (easier that way).

It differs from company to company, I have heard some horror stories but luckily haven't had much of an issue myself. The company I work for seem to have a good training culture on the vessels and towards the end I was more or less given my own watch while the old man done some paper work in the background, but everything was very hands on. Not really sure what you can do other than read up and make the most of the bad situation.

This is a good thing to do, particularly on your last ship as it gives you a bit of experience with the right amount of oversight (I imagine saying something like "uh oh" would get the Old Man's attention)

Being a cadet you tend to be at the bottom of the work load. The chief has a lot to do and if he doesn't want to train you then he is not going too. I always dislike that attitude from folks. How can anyone ever progress or learn if those above won't teach!?

You are not in an Isolated case ! I have been on ships where the OOW has turned up drunk Was he reported? Sacking offence that one.

The OOW couldn't speak or understand English How do they work the radio?.

The OOW failed to call the captain when we received a distress I had to persuade him to call the captain. Was he worried that the Captain would yell at him for it? Does he know he actually has a legal responsibility to respond to distress calls?

Unfortunately it seems now a day that there is a lot more "tax cadet companies". You are only onboard for them to make money Not to be too harsh, but a business isn't a charity, it's there to make a profit, but I do believe that they should at least take more of an interest in their cadets

My bold again sorry.

I think tonnage tax should require companies to employ the officers they train for a period of time, this will mean people get sea time but also means the companies may take more interest in the standard of training as the cadets of today will be the companies future officers I know it isn't likely to happen but it'd be good if it did

In principle it's a good idea, but in reality it is never going to happen and to try and force companies to do this would probably be a bad thing. As I said above, a business is not there to give you employment or be a charity, it's there to make a profit. The profit margins within this industry, on a voyage by voyage basis, are extremely small. Small things can mean the difference between a profit and a loss on a voyage. A business isn't going to do anything if it isn't financially viable and if employing a cadet after their cadetship is not fiancially viable, then they will either shut down or move their operations/reflag their vessels and then there are fewer training places available for cadets. The best example I can give is the US with their Jones Act.

The Jones Act, in principle, was a good idea and it was fine when it was implemented. However, nowadays our industry is a global one, so that sort of protectionism is not particularly wise (IMO). There were a few articles about it on G.Captain today funnily enough, one where Oil Companies within the US were moaning about the costs of transporting their cargo's around and talking about the general decline/drop in numbers of US flagged vessels. Puerto Rico actually said that they don't buy any oil products from the US as the transport charges are double/triple (?) the cost of obtaining it elsewhere. Hawaii and other places also complain about the cost of goods on their islands as the prices are driven up by the cost of shipping them there. Imagine what would happen if we were to implement that here!?

[Martyboy]

I'm curious as to what you were expecting from your training, Keeping in mind if your phase 1 then your only 4 months into a 3 year training programme? Most of the British officers i've sailed with have been trained to a high standard, and I dare say I am trained to a high standard myself, perhaps you disagree?

[HarmlessWeasel]

tempting, tempting... nah better not

[HarmlessWeasel]

I do worry about friends with other companies, who I personally feel are being used for tax benefit not because any company wants them as an officer for the future, I know they will be good officers in the future, but I cannot understand why our tax system is supporting companies that do this.

How can the system not? It can't discriminate between 'good' and 'bad' companies

[Martyboy]

Yea, judging by your pic we work for the same company too. STC has it's issues with time tabling and yea, the power points are dull, when I was in phase 1 they put us all in minibusses and took us down to the port, we got to go out and drive the pilot boats, piss around the quayside then the harbour master took us into VTS and then accross to a ship that was along side for a tour of the bridge and engine room, although this seems to have stopped now. I don't know if you go to/ were at the HE meeting (another one coming up next week) and I brought the point up with the boss man that I was being taught to weld in a class room on a powerpoint when the college has welding bays, but the issue is that everything costs money and Maersk wont pay for you to play in the simulators (until you in phase 5). Phase 1 is a bit boring because they are talking about watch keeping and radars, colregs etc and you've never seen one, so it's hard to get into the right frame of mind. Things do get a bit more interesting when you've actually been on a ship but you'll never escape the "Death by powerpoint" style of teaching, and TBH your letter to your MP wont go very far, the MCA are very set in there ways...... the MNI, college lecturers etc who are all master mariners try to raise issues and the MCA don't listen, so I really doubt they will take on board what you have to say

[Martyboy]

Maersk are a great company to work for, but I wouldn't expect very much time on the bridge in your first 3-6 months of training, a few weeks here and there but it'll be mostly out cleaning painting chipping etc

[PatrickW]

How can the system not? It can't discriminate between 'good' and 'bad' companies

Why not have an additional tax incentive for companies who have a retention of British Seafarers? So you get tax breaks for training a British cadet but an even bigger one if you train and retain. Incentive then to provide better training as they will be your future officer = more British people on board to help training cadets better in the future.... Simple...In my mind....!

[Martyboy]

Why not have an additional tax incentive for companies who have a retention of British Seafarers? So you get tax breaks for training a British cadet but an even bigger one if you train and retain. Incentive then to provide better training as they will be your future officer = more British people on board to help training cadets better in the future.... Simple...In my mind....!

Then the ships reflag to Panama because it's cheaper and the British government don't get any Tax