Eng Cadet drop-out rate?

[gadget123]

I dunno, I think there are definitely jobs out there. I passed my orals about 6 weeks ago and have had 4 job offers, most of my friends who have been looking seriously are the same. Presently surprising because I was a bit worried about the job market before I started looking. Having said that if everyone stuck it out until the end then that might not be the case. So it's a fair point.

If you don't mind me asking who are your job offers from. I am struggling to find anyone hiring 3rd mates.

[GuinnessMan]

GuinnessMan, I am sure all of your ships are wonderful and you treat your cadets like kings. But please accept there are some awful companies running some awful ships out there. And yes I can understand being yelled at if you have done something wrong or stupid, but being yelled at in broken English by someone who is clearly drunk everyday for 4 months is unnecessary, pointless and demoralising. The food on some ships is basically indelible and generally bad for your health. The lack of communication can be very isolating, you are spending several months with a crew who speak basicly no English, and on wages so low you can't really afford to call home, so it is likely you will go several months without having a fluent conversation another human being. So yes I imagine that the dropout rate in companies like the RFA, cruise companies, and offshore companies where cadets actually stand a change of employment afterwards are considerably lower.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I know there are some god awful ships out there as I've been on a number of them for inspections in my previous place. The sort of ships that British cadets tend to find themselves are no where near as bad as those ever where (I remember us having to keep one set of crew in a hotel until we fumigated and thoroughly out the entire accommodation block it was that honking). Also, our cadets get treated as........cadets. There to learn, with the onus for their training and training books placed solely and squarely on them. Our officers will help, assist, teach but the onus for sorting out what they need to do is on the cadet and the cadet alone. One thing, the clearly drunk bit. Did you say or do anything about it? Speak to the Master or your training officer about it? Same for them shouting? I always saw it that if they want to shout, belittle and generally be an arse then let them and ignore it. Sticks and stones....

Also, If the food is bad, did anyone say anything to anyone at all or was it the usual "we'll bitch about it among ourselves, but won't tell anyone else"? Normally if a complaint about food or the cook comes through then it is taken a bit seriously (especially nowadays with MLC and with all of us knowing the effect upon morale a bad cook has). I have also sailed on ships with no internet and only a satphone which charged $3.50 per minute so I didn't exactly have the luxury of calling home whenever I wanted. I found that you are only ever as isolated as you make yourself and if you try (like I did) to learn a bit of the language and try to have a conversation with the crew, you'd be surprised at how quickly things improve and how less isolated you will feel. If you hide yourself away in your cabin then you are going to be very lonely indeed...

What has employment with your sponsor at the end got to do with a drop out rate? Trust me, UK cadets are treated a darn sight better than cadets of other nationalities....

Finally, from my cadetship, most of the folks who left were normally booted out during college phases for various reasons (not showing up, D&A, etc). It was unusual for someone to resign or leave because they didn't like it and nearly all like that had left before the start of 3rd Phase, so in all of that the conditions on board is not that big of a factor.

Out of curiosity, who are you sponsored by? It's not the big Z is it?

[EH75]

Your point about the level of English of the Officers is fair enough, however I don't agree with the bit about the training system. The cadets should be able to explain their training system to the Officers on board, not the other way around and whilst the Officers on board should be willing to teach, the cadets should be willing to ask as well. Don't ask, you don't get.

Ah yes, but then if the officers can hardly speak English then it will be significantly more difficult to explain things to them. Agree with your point about cadets needing to make an effort though. Even if there is a language barrier if cadets try to get more involved in things and show they are keen then the officers are much more likely to take to them and show them things.


The wider point about reporting things is a difficult one. As a cadet you are acutely aware that you only get one shot at your cadetship due to the funding issues and you don't want to seem like a trouble maker of a nuisance, because if they don't take your complaint seriously, its a bit more difficult to hand your notice in and go somewhere else. Being quiet about things might often be an easier life from that perspective. I'm not saying that's the right way to do things but I'm sure you can see where I'm coming from.

We got some god awful food on my ship and although the cook tried to cook "western food" for us, he basically didn't have a clue what we eat in Europe. We did try and explain some dishes to him but I don't think he really understood. Some of the stuff they cooked up for us was hilarious. I just got on with things though, was a good way to loose weight!

[bobofinga]

If you don't mind me asking who are your job offers from. I am struggling to find anyone hiring 3rd mates.

As EH75 said , you can't be 'seriously' looking because I have seen a good few adverts for 3rd mates recently...

[alistairuk]

If you don't mind me asking who are your job offers from. I am struggling to find anyone hiring 3rd mates.

To go slightly off topic your post highlights the importance of "networking" - something that is especially important if your with a training organisation that doesn't take cadets on as officers...

Keeping in touch with the officers on the ships you've sailed on - especially the senior ones - will make life easy for you when it comes to getting that first step on the ladder - or even moving up the ladder.

As I've said before the industry is surprisingly small and if people know you and know that you were an excellent cadet / junior officer they're highly likely to recommend you for a position.

They don't have to be British - as a cadet I never sailed with any British officers - still didn't stop me getting that first job within weeks of qualifying - an awesome temporary position on a small cruise ship / expedition ship (which was promptly extended to a promotion to 2nd mate after 6 weeks and permanent employment) & I was the only British officer Onboard - how did I get it? I was recommended to the fleet manager by one of the staff captains I had sailed with previously!

You'll find that similar stories apply to most of the qualified officers on here who weren't taken on by the company they trained with.

So while the above may not be much use to you - hopefully it will help out some cadets who are still on ship!

Note: I only mention the lack of sailing with British officers to highlight a point - there's plenty of good officers out there - not all British officers are good!!

[alistairuk]

If you don't mind me asking who are your job offers from. I am struggling to find anyone hiring 3rd mates.

Some suggestions (if you haven't already done them);

Have a look in the telegraph and send your cv to a number of recruitment agencies - if you haven't already!

Are you looking for anything or specific types of ship? You'll obviously find it easier to get the position you want after you've got some experience so perhaps look for anything even if it doesn't appeal to you just to get the experience - join linked in if your not on it already.

[EH75]

To go slightly off topic your post highlights the importance of "networking" - something that is especially important if your with a training organisation that doesn't take cadets on as officers...

Keeping in touch with the officers on the ships you've sailed on - especially the senior ones - will make life easy for you when it comes to getting that first step on the ladder - or even moving up the ladder.

As I've said before the industry is surprisingly small and if people know you and know that you were an excellent cadet / junior officer they're highly likely to recommend you for a position.

They don't have to be British - as a cadet I never sailed with any British officers - still didn't stop me getting that first job within weeks of qualifying - an awesome temporary position on a small cruise ship / expedition ship (which was promptly extended to a promotion to 2nd mate after 6 weeks and permanent employment) & I was the only British officer Onboard - how did I get it? I was recommended to the fleet manager by one of the staff captains I had sailed with previously!

You'll find that similar stories apply to most of the qualified officers on here who weren't taken on by the company they trained with.

So while the above may not be much use to you - hopefully it will help out some cadets who are still on ship!

Note: I only mention the lack of sailing with British officers to highlight a point - there's plenty of good officers out there - not all British officers are good!!

That's all well and good, if the officers you sail with are likely to know of opportunities up coming with companies that actually employ British Officers. For a lot of guys there is not much chance of that really. The officers I were on were nice enough, but had no contacts within that part of the industry. Obviously the wider point of networking is valid and if you can get a job on recommendation then great, but for a lot of guys sailing with tonnage tax companies its unlikely.

[chris]

@gadget123 Im a friend of clyde recruitment on facebook, its a good place to see the jobs as they add them. Just saw a short term OOW dredger job being advertised based in Lowestoft, might be good for that first stamp.

[Rootsea]

Just for a bit of a comparison, I used to work in an army Regimental Recruitment Team. On average about 30% of recruits in training would drop out - almost all within the first 3 months of their course. By far the biggest issue was culture shock combined with homesickness - most people who suffered an injury went through the army rehabilitation system and went back into training at a later date. Interestingly, we had a lot of people turn up at careers offices who had dropped out of training but realised they had made a bad call and wanted to re-enlist - we once had a man who had dropped out on Friday and was in the office on Monday morning!

Of course, the situation is different as the army has a very good selection procedure to weed out people who aren't committed or aren't suitable. Out of every 100 'expressions of interest' only 20-30 would ever make it to the Infantry Training Centre in Catterick.

Personally I think a high drop out rate isn't necessarily a bad thing. It ensures that only those capable of doing the job to the required standard are able to finish the course. In addition with some jobs there is an 'X Factor'; Being a Merchant Navy Officer is unlike any other career and those who do the job require that certain 'X Factor' which enables them to cope with - and thrive upon - the challenges they will face. That is something I believe you have or you don't have, you could be an excellent person but find that you simply do not enjoy the lifestyle or the job. It is far better for those people to be able to drop out without a stain on their character than for them to have to continue doing something they don't enjoy.

[laura]

No not all British Officers are good but that doesn't mean the foreign ones are excellent either. This onus on the cadet to to organise their complete training is not particularly fair, as the lowest member of the crew, and the 'foreigner'. As a cadet I was on decent boats with officers who spoke a fairly high level of English but... as the only English speaker onboard, it was not used and trust me I tried very hard thank you, they were simply not interested. Instead of working with the crew I was regularly either working completely alone/ gangway watches in port alone and spent two thirds of my cadetship on a 18-06 watch and was often left with menial tasks, nobody wanted to speak english, easier to give me a whole day of washing/ chipping/ chart corrections in a corner. I asked questions, turned up for tasks that I thought might be helpful outside my watches and worked my ass off, but I could not make my crew show me anything, teach me anything or have a conversation with me at the dinner table, free time was terrible, at work people spoke to you when they had to, on your time off there was no reason to even bother, or when you try it means sitting awkwardly wondering what evryone is saying- just like at work. Early on especially as the officers didn't want to speak english I was dumped with the Filippino ratings who didn't think girls should be there anyway and whose english was often terrible, then I had to spend months trying to convince them that I was okay, by which point I was usually punted off due to berth space, berth space was for cadets who were getting a job- not tonnage tax cadets. I saw how other cadets of the two nationalities my company does employ were treated by the crew onboard- it was like night and day. I even remember a new second mate making a point of speaking at English trying to genuinely help me as a cadet, the Captain shouted at him for not using their own language. Fluency isn't the problem, the tonnage tax is.

Are we the only nationality who sends our cadets to train with different nationalities where they will be the only Brit onboard and then tell them it's their fault for not 'nutting up or trying hard enough'? This is someone who is now fluent in another language which I sure as hell couldn't speak a word of as a cadet. Yes, speak a few words and everyone will love you and you'll be one of the crew instantly- nope, not even close. When you can genuinely contribute without someone having to use a 'foreign language' then your onto a winner- before then it's just embarrasing. None of the guys I work with spent their entire cadetship with a completely 'foreign' crew. Just us Brits who do that. If it's a mixed crew you've got half a chance, if they have less than two common languages you're screwed.

I'm with Gadget. Although I would say that proficiency in English helps, in my experience it's the quantity of english that was the problem not the quality. And 3/4 of my cadet time was on British flagged ships- what a joke.

[laura]

I agree with GM. Not necessarily in early twenties but should have lived on your own and had a full time job for a year or so.

Laura do you mean somebody dropped out on first day of college? If so how /why?

I dunno, they turned up and the next day they'd disappeared and were never heard of again?

[Lewis]

Just to play devils advocate it's says your a qualified deck officer so your training can't of been that bad. Maybe it isn't a fault but a feature designed to produce self reliant and determined officers :P

[laura]

Hahaha thanks Lewis, well I haven't gone aground yet!

No but my cadetship completely turned around in my last sea phase, I got lucky with a good ship and I was getting passable in my new language. Not only did the social isolation stop but it was little things like understanding 'ah now they're going to take the ropes' or understanding what the Captain was saying to the Mate for example made a huge difference. I actually became member of the crew and not just a 'hanger on' or the 'British cadet' plus my experience was building and I was getting used to the culture and finding ways to get buy, not to mention reading every manual/ SMS/ drawing onboard. On my first ship the Captain didn't even know my name, we were a crew of 16, I was 'you cadet, I don't know your name!' And that was after a month onboard. Looking back it's kinda funny now, it wasn't quite as funny then right enough... well maybe it was!

[Lewis]

Mines seems to be going other way round had an excellent 1st sea phase. Officers and crew were incredibly helpful. Now on second sea phase and all I do is stencilling and gangway watch. It's not fault of the officers but the captain. Seems to be going out of his way to suck fun out of it and make it almost impossible to learn. I do extra in my own time of tasks I want to be involved in I actually spend my study day studying. But no mater what I do captain wont get off my case. Worse thing is although he is generally unpleasant to me to the other cadet on board it is much worse I would call it bullying. To top it off because of trading pattern 24 hours to load and discharge and longest voyage is about 12 hours struggling to get bridge time I need.

[laura]

Not sounding too goos, sometimes it only takes one guy onboard ro ruin what should be a good ship, and the higher up the ladder they are the worse it can be for everyone. Keep in there and focus on the end goal, you due off soon?