Eng Cadet drop-out rate?

[chris]

@gadget123 Im a friend of clyde recruitment on facebook, its a good place to see the jobs as they add them. Just saw a short term OOW dredger job being advertised based in Lowestoft, might be good for that first stamp.

[EH75]

To go slightly off topic your post highlights the importance of "networking" - something that is especially important if your with a training organisation that doesn't take cadets on as officers...

Keeping in touch with the officers on the ships you've sailed on - especially the senior ones - will make life easy for you when it comes to getting that first step on the ladder - or even moving up the ladder.

As I've said before the industry is surprisingly small and if people know you and know that you were an excellent cadet / junior officer they're highly likely to recommend you for a position.

They don't have to be British - as a cadet I never sailed with any British officers - still didn't stop me getting that first job within weeks of qualifying - an awesome temporary position on a small cruise ship / expedition ship (which was promptly extended to a promotion to 2nd mate after 6 weeks and permanent employment) & I was the only British officer Onboard - how did I get it? I was recommended to the fleet manager by one of the staff captains I had sailed with previously!

You'll find that similar stories apply to most of the qualified officers on here who weren't taken on by the company they trained with.

So while the above may not be much use to you - hopefully it will help out some cadets who are still on ship!

Note: I only mention the lack of sailing with British officers to highlight a point - there's plenty of good officers out there - not all British officers are good!!

That's all well and good, if the officers you sail with are likely to know of opportunities up coming with companies that actually employ British Officers. For a lot of guys there is not much chance of that really. The officers I were on were nice enough, but had no contacts within that part of the industry. Obviously the wider point of networking is valid and if you can get a job on recommendation then great, but for a lot of guys sailing with tonnage tax companies its unlikely.

[alistairuk]

If you don't mind me asking who are your job offers from. I am struggling to find anyone hiring 3rd mates.

Some suggestions (if you haven't already done them);

Have a look in the telegraph and send your cv to a number of recruitment agencies - if you haven't already!

Are you looking for anything or specific types of ship? You'll obviously find it easier to get the position you want after you've got some experience so perhaps look for anything even if it doesn't appeal to you just to get the experience - join linked in if your not on it already.

[alistairuk]

If you don't mind me asking who are your job offers from. I am struggling to find anyone hiring 3rd mates.

To go slightly off topic your post highlights the importance of "networking" - something that is especially important if your with a training organisation that doesn't take cadets on as officers...

Keeping in touch with the officers on the ships you've sailed on - especially the senior ones - will make life easy for you when it comes to getting that first step on the ladder - or even moving up the ladder.

As I've said before the industry is surprisingly small and if people know you and know that you were an excellent cadet / junior officer they're highly likely to recommend you for a position.

They don't have to be British - as a cadet I never sailed with any British officers - still didn't stop me getting that first job within weeks of qualifying - an awesome temporary position on a small cruise ship / expedition ship (which was promptly extended to a promotion to 2nd mate after 6 weeks and permanent employment) & I was the only British officer Onboard - how did I get it? I was recommended to the fleet manager by one of the staff captains I had sailed with previously!

You'll find that similar stories apply to most of the qualified officers on here who weren't taken on by the company they trained with.

So while the above may not be much use to you - hopefully it will help out some cadets who are still on ship!

Note: I only mention the lack of sailing with British officers to highlight a point - there's plenty of good officers out there - not all British officers are good!!

[bobofinga]

If you don't mind me asking who are your job offers from. I am struggling to find anyone hiring 3rd mates.

As EH75 said , you can't be 'seriously' looking because I have seen a good few adverts for 3rd mates recently...

[EH75]

Your point about the level of English of the Officers is fair enough, however I don't agree with the bit about the training system. The cadets should be able to explain their training system to the Officers on board, not the other way around and whilst the Officers on board should be willing to teach, the cadets should be willing to ask as well. Don't ask, you don't get.

Ah yes, but then if the officers can hardly speak English then it will be significantly more difficult to explain things to them. Agree with your point about cadets needing to make an effort though. Even if there is a language barrier if cadets try to get more involved in things and show they are keen then the officers are much more likely to take to them and show them things.


The wider point about reporting things is a difficult one. As a cadet you are acutely aware that you only get one shot at your cadetship due to the funding issues and you don't want to seem like a trouble maker of a nuisance, because if they don't take your complaint seriously, its a bit more difficult to hand your notice in and go somewhere else. Being quiet about things might often be an easier life from that perspective. I'm not saying that's the right way to do things but I'm sure you can see where I'm coming from.

We got some god awful food on my ship and although the cook tried to cook "western food" for us, he basically didn't have a clue what we eat in Europe. We did try and explain some dishes to him but I don't think he really understood. Some of the stuff they cooked up for us was hilarious. I just got on with things though, was a good way to loose weight!

[GuinnessMan]

GuinnessMan, I am sure all of your ships are wonderful and you treat your cadets like kings. But please accept there are some awful companies running some awful ships out there. And yes I can understand being yelled at if you have done something wrong or stupid, but being yelled at in broken English by someone who is clearly drunk everyday for 4 months is unnecessary, pointless and demoralising. The food on some ships is basically indelible and generally bad for your health. The lack of communication can be very isolating, you are spending several months with a crew who speak basicly no English, and on wages so low you can't really afford to call home, so it is likely you will go several months without having a fluent conversation another human being. So yes I imagine that the dropout rate in companies like the RFA, cruise companies, and offshore companies where cadets actually stand a change of employment afterwards are considerably lower.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I know there are some god awful ships out there as I've been on a number of them for inspections in my previous place. The sort of ships that British cadets tend to find themselves are no where near as bad as those ever where (I remember us having to keep one set of crew in a hotel until we fumigated and thoroughly out the entire accommodation block it was that honking). Also, our cadets get treated as........cadets. There to learn, with the onus for their training and training books placed solely and squarely on them. Our officers will help, assist, teach but the onus for sorting out what they need to do is on the cadet and the cadet alone. One thing, the clearly drunk bit. Did you say or do anything about it? Speak to the Master or your training officer about it? Same for them shouting? I always saw it that if they want to shout, belittle and generally be an arse then let them and ignore it. Sticks and stones....

Also, If the food is bad, did anyone say anything to anyone at all or was it the usual "we'll bitch about it among ourselves, but won't tell anyone else"? Normally if a complaint about food or the cook comes through then it is taken a bit seriously (especially nowadays with MLC and with all of us knowing the effect upon morale a bad cook has). I have also sailed on ships with no internet and only a satphone which charged $3.50 per minute so I didn't exactly have the luxury of calling home whenever I wanted. I found that you are only ever as isolated as you make yourself and if you try (like I did) to learn a bit of the language and try to have a conversation with the crew, you'd be surprised at how quickly things improve and how less isolated you will feel. If you hide yourself away in your cabin then you are going to be very lonely indeed...

What has employment with your sponsor at the end got to do with a drop out rate? Trust me, UK cadets are treated a darn sight better than cadets of other nationalities....

Finally, from my cadetship, most of the folks who left were normally booted out during college phases for various reasons (not showing up, D&A, etc). It was unusual for someone to resign or leave because they didn't like it and nearly all like that had left before the start of 3rd Phase, so in all of that the conditions on board is not that big of a factor.

Out of curiosity, who are you sponsored by? It's not the big Z is it?

[gadget123]

I dunno, I think there are definitely jobs out there. I passed my orals about 6 weeks ago and have had 4 job offers, most of my friends who have been looking seriously are the same. Presently surprising because I was a bit worried about the job market before I started looking. Having said that if everyone stuck it out until the end then that might not be the case. So it's a fair point.

If you don't mind me asking who are your job offers from. I am struggling to find anyone hiring 3rd mates.

[gadget123]

GuinnessMan, I am sure all of your ships are wonderful and you treat your cadets like kings. But please accept there are some awful companies running some awful ships out there. And yes I can understand being yelled at if you have done something wrong or stupid, but being yelled at in broken English by someone who is clearly drunk everyday for 4 months is unnecessary, pointless and demoralising. The food on some ships is basically indelible and generally bad for your health. The lack of communication can be very isolating, you are spending several months with a crew who speak basicly no English, and on wages so low you can't really afford to call home, so it is likely you will go several months without having a fluent conversation another human being. So yes I imagine that the dropout rate in companies like the RFA, cruise companies, and offshore companies where cadets actually stand a change of employment afterwards are considerably lower.

[GuinnessMan]

A lot of the drop out rate is due to the awful conditions on the ships that a lot of cadets are sent on. It would be interesting to see a comparison of dropout rates between different companies, I bet the rate in the companies employing British officers is lower.

If companies want to reduce the dropout rate maybe a "being yelled at by a pissed up russian" section should be added to the interview process along with making them eat fish head soup for a few months. But of course that is unrealistic and the dropout rate will always be high.

But in reality we need a high dropout rate, the simple fact is there is not enough jobs available for newly qualified British officers, and if it wasn't for the high dropout rate it would be even harder for people to find jobs once qualified.

Awful conditions? Based on what exactly? What are these awful conditions that the cadets are suffering from?

And the Russian bit? Honestly? If being yelled at is enough to make you leave, then would it be unfair of me to suggest that perhaps someone doesn't have the correct mental attitude or is not mentally "robust" enough? Have we not already gone through this bit about being shouted at in a previous thread? Also, as someone who personally despises all forms of seafood, I somehow managed to do ok on board with a Filipino crew.....

That's true. I reckon you could just say that it would be good if cadets could sail with officers with a good command of the English language who are familiar with the training system and who are keen to teach.

Your point about the level of English of the Officers is fair enough, however I don't agree with the bit about the training system. The cadets should be able to explain their training system to the Officers on board, not the other way around and whilst the Officers on board should be willing to teach, the cadets should be willing to ask as well. Don't ask, you don't get.

I know I'm banging a bit of a drum when I say this and most folks will shout me down for it, but an all British crew does not necessarily mean you will get better training. Best person I learnt from was a Russian Chief Engineer and Croatian 2nd Engineer and I have been on an all British crewed vessel before. The reason these guys were good was because they took the time to teach and I could explain my training system to them. It strikes me that some cadets just want to be drip fed everything and that's not how a cadetship works (in my opinion anyways), you need to have some drive and you need to be a fairly robust character as well.

[Lewis]

I agree with GM. Not necessarily in early twenties but should have lived on your own and had a full time job for a year or so.

Laura do you mean somebody dropped out on first day of college? If so how /why?

[Steve]

-Going on ships with all British Officers (or officers who are interesting in training you and understand the training requirements)
-Always going on with other British cadets
-Having internet on-board for better communications with home
-Getting away to sea earlier to get a better idea of things

You could be describing the RFA in HND days. ;-) Out of my intake of around 12 cadets I only know of one who did not make it through to qualifying. We still have an excellent retention and completion rate.

[EH75]

That's true. I reckon you could just say that it would be good if cadets could sail with officers with a good command of the English language who are familiar with the training system and who are keen to teach.

[Martyboy]

A lot of the drop out rate is due to the awful conditions on the ships that a lot of cadets are sent on. It would be interesting to see a comparison of dropout rates between different companies, I bet the rate in the companies employing British officers is lower.

If companies want to reduce the dropout rate maybe a "being yelled at by a pissed up russian" section should be added to the interview process along with making them eat fish head soup for a few months. But of course that is unrealistic and the dropout rate will always be high.

But in reality we need a high dropout rate, the simple fact is there is not enough jobs available for newly qualified British officers, and if it wasn't for the high dropout rate it would be even harder for people to find jobs once qualified.

I know what your saying, I've heard stories about Crew's who refuse to speak English to isolate cadets etc However I wouldn't say you need "British" officers. I have sailed with Danish Polish Russian Ukrainian Romanian, South African Filipino and Indian officers who were also brilliant, I think it depends on the company and the attitude of its employees.

[EH75]

But in reality we need a high dropout rate, the simple fact is there is not enough jobs available for newly qualified British officers, and if it wasn't for the high dropout rate it would be even harder for people to find jobs once qualified.

I dunno, I think there are definitely jobs out there. I passed my orals about 6 weeks ago and have had 4 job offers, most of my friends who have been looking seriously are the same. Presently surprising because I was a bit worried about the job market before I started looking. Having said that if everyone stuck it out until the end then that might not be the case. So it's a fair point.