Eng Cadet drop-out rate?

[GuinnessMan]

Do many leave due to not achieving the academic standards?

Urm, not always. That was the bit I missed out when I was talking about the folks who left. Majority left because they didn't bother their arse to come to college, didn't try very hard at sea (one lad didn't complete a single item of his TRB) or a positive D&A test. Only two lads that I knew left because they decided it wasn't for them, the rest got the boot....

[hiho123]

It's a bit shocking to hear these figures, sounds like alot of people sign up without knowing what they will actually do.

To add my own experience, I applied when I was 17 with minimal research as it seemed like a good idea at the time and the uniform sounded swanky.

I applied at my current grand old age of 23 after lots and lots of research and deciding it is the best choice for me and something I will commit too....

I think this is probably where a lot of younger chaps and chapesses slip up...

How many would you say slip up on the drugs and alcohol tests? I could understand alcohol but didn't think many would be silly enough to get caught with a positive for any drugs.

[YoungMariner]

I imagine its hard screening people at interviews for suitability to go to sea, very few people seem to have family who have served at sea. Almost without exception, every colleague I speak to wouldn't recommend their children to serve at sea, so I can understand why so few come from seafaring backgrounds (I don't really understand this either). I think it would be hard to curb the dropout rate, and I do know quite a few people who have regrets for dropping out too early.
Also, with some of the ships that people are sent on with crews from Eastern Europe and Asia it can be quite difficult for a lonely Brit cadet, no suprise when I few drop out because of the poor conditions on some of those rust buckets.

[laura]

We had one who left after struggling academically in classes and someone who started at the same time as us but in a different class who got kicked out after a positive drugs result- probably rare but not unheard of.

At the same time we've had one guy who took several repeats after failing a lot of his exams several times but he stuck it out. One guy who did well throughout his entire cadetship (or seemed to) got too dillusioned during his final sea phase and a bit sick of the Russians he was sailing with but passed his orals before he gave it up for good.

Anybody know how these figures compare down the years? Has it been better/ worse/or same in past times for cadet drop out rates?

I sometimes wonder if these figures would be different if cadets were a bit older, is there any difference between those on 'good' or 'bad' boats or is it more reliant on character/ personality and determination?

[laura]

I imagine its hard screening people at interviews for suitability to go to sea, very few people seem to have family who have served at sea. Almost without exception, every colleague I speak to wouldn't recommend their children to serve at sea, so I can understand why so few come from seafaring backgrounds (I don't really understand this either). I think it would be hard to curb the dropout rate, and I do know quite a few people who have regrets for dropping out too early.
Also, with some of the ships that people are sent on with crews from Eastern Europe and Asia it can be quite difficult for a lonely Brit cadet, no suprise when I few drop out because of the poor conditions on some of those rust buckets.

I think I've posted a link to a thesis on cadets before here- which covers some of the reasons for wastage on detail from the seafarer's research centre in Cardiff- as you say about the lonely Brit, I think the conclusion was that although it was sometimes down to the individual, often shipboard experiences had a much bigger impact on a cadet's decision to stick it out and that it was unfair to say that they had been unsuitable. I'm not paraphrasing well- I'll try to find the link... interesting reading, slightly depressing and very long... but if anyone was genuinely interested a good resource!

[EH75]

Do many leave due to not achieving the academic standards?

There was a few like this in my intake. I put that down primarily to the ridiculous exam scheduling at the end of phase one (something like 10-15 exams in the space of 2-3 weeks, it was really badly organised). Probably cost between 5-10 people their place either through resigning cos they couldn't handle or being fired.

I heard about a couple of guys failing drugs tests and being punted as a result, although no-one I knew personally. Although I suspect a reasonable percentage of cadets may have tried drugs prior to starting their cadetship (just like the rest of the population) most people aren't daft enough to do it once entering the profession.

But yeah most of the drop out outs were due to not having a good time at sea. Not really sure what could be done realistically to combat this. Of course, unrealistic stuff like...

-Going on ships with all British Officers (or officers who are interesting in training you and understand the training requirements)
-Always going on with other British cadets
-Having internet on-board for better communications with home
-Getting away to sea earlier to get a better idea of things

...might help, but at the end of the day those things are never going to happen and even if they did a lot of people would still leave. If its not for you, its not for you.

[HarmlessWeasel]

I'd also run an assessment day of sorts, group tasks, leadership stuff, that sort of jazz....

That's sort of what the borg are doing, although post-selection, so I suppose more as a learning experience for those that might not already have the basics of those skills (and for good fun too). They say since they've started doing it they've seen retention rates increase drastically and had very positive feedback from colleges.

[gadget123]

A lot of the drop out rate is due to the awful conditions on the ships that a lot of cadets are sent on. It would be interesting to see a comparison of dropout rates between different companies, I bet the rate in the companies employing British officers is lower.

If companies want to reduce the dropout rate maybe a "being yelled at by a pissed up russian" section should be added to the interview process along with making them eat fish head soup for a few months. But of course that is unrealistic and the dropout rate will always be high.

But in reality we need a high dropout rate, the simple fact is there is not enough jobs available for newly qualified British officers, and if it wasn't for the high dropout rate it would be even harder for people to find jobs once qualified.

[EH75]

But in reality we need a high dropout rate, the simple fact is there is not enough jobs available for newly qualified British officers, and if it wasn't for the high dropout rate it would be even harder for people to find jobs once qualified.

I dunno, I think there are definitely jobs out there. I passed my orals about 6 weeks ago and have had 4 job offers, most of my friends who have been looking seriously are the same. Presently surprising because I was a bit worried about the job market before I started looking. Having said that if everyone stuck it out until the end then that might not be the case. So it's a fair point.

[Martyboy]

A lot of the drop out rate is due to the awful conditions on the ships that a lot of cadets are sent on. It would be interesting to see a comparison of dropout rates between different companies, I bet the rate in the companies employing British officers is lower.

If companies want to reduce the dropout rate maybe a "being yelled at by a pissed up russian" section should be added to the interview process along with making them eat fish head soup for a few months. But of course that is unrealistic and the dropout rate will always be high.

But in reality we need a high dropout rate, the simple fact is there is not enough jobs available for newly qualified British officers, and if it wasn't for the high dropout rate it would be even harder for people to find jobs once qualified.

I know what your saying, I've heard stories about Crew's who refuse to speak English to isolate cadets etc However I wouldn't say you need "British" officers. I have sailed with Danish Polish Russian Ukrainian Romanian, South African Filipino and Indian officers who were also brilliant, I think it depends on the company and the attitude of its employees.

[EH75]

That's true. I reckon you could just say that it would be good if cadets could sail with officers with a good command of the English language who are familiar with the training system and who are keen to teach.

[Steve]

-Going on ships with all British Officers (or officers who are interesting in training you and understand the training requirements)
-Always going on with other British cadets
-Having internet on-board for better communications with home
-Getting away to sea earlier to get a better idea of things

You could be describing the RFA in HND days. ;-) Out of my intake of around 12 cadets I only know of one who did not make it through to qualifying. We still have an excellent retention and completion rate.

[Lewis]

I agree with GM. Not necessarily in early twenties but should have lived on your own and had a full time job for a year or so.

Laura do you mean somebody dropped out on first day of college? If so how /why?

[GuinnessMan]

A lot of the drop out rate is due to the awful conditions on the ships that a lot of cadets are sent on. It would be interesting to see a comparison of dropout rates between different companies, I bet the rate in the companies employing British officers is lower.

If companies want to reduce the dropout rate maybe a "being yelled at by a pissed up russian" section should be added to the interview process along with making them eat fish head soup for a few months. But of course that is unrealistic and the dropout rate will always be high.

But in reality we need a high dropout rate, the simple fact is there is not enough jobs available for newly qualified British officers, and if it wasn't for the high dropout rate it would be even harder for people to find jobs once qualified.

Awful conditions? Based on what exactly? What are these awful conditions that the cadets are suffering from?

And the Russian bit? Honestly? If being yelled at is enough to make you leave, then would it be unfair of me to suggest that perhaps someone doesn't have the correct mental attitude or is not mentally "robust" enough? Have we not already gone through this bit about being shouted at in a previous thread? Also, as someone who personally despises all forms of seafood, I somehow managed to do ok on board with a Filipino crew.....

That's true. I reckon you could just say that it would be good if cadets could sail with officers with a good command of the English language who are familiar with the training system and who are keen to teach.

Your point about the level of English of the Officers is fair enough, however I don't agree with the bit about the training system. The cadets should be able to explain their training system to the Officers on board, not the other way around and whilst the Officers on board should be willing to teach, the cadets should be willing to ask as well. Don't ask, you don't get.

I know I'm banging a bit of a drum when I say this and most folks will shout me down for it, but an all British crew does not necessarily mean you will get better training. Best person I learnt from was a Russian Chief Engineer and Croatian 2nd Engineer and I have been on an all British crewed vessel before. The reason these guys were good was because they took the time to teach and I could explain my training system to them. It strikes me that some cadets just want to be drip fed everything and that's not how a cadetship works (in my opinion anyways), you need to have some drive and you need to be a fairly robust character as well.

[gadget123]

GuinnessMan, I am sure all of your ships are wonderful and you treat your cadets like kings. But please accept there are some awful companies running some awful ships out there. And yes I can understand being yelled at if you have done something wrong or stupid, but being yelled at in broken English by someone who is clearly drunk everyday for 4 months is unnecessary, pointless and demoralising. The food on some ships is basically indelible and generally bad for your health. The lack of communication can be very isolating, you are spending several months with a crew who speak basicly no English, and on wages so low you can't really afford to call home, so it is likely you will go several months without having a fluent conversation another human being. So yes I imagine that the dropout rate in companies like the RFA, cruise companies, and offshore companies where cadets actually stand a change of employment afterwards are considerably lower.