Signing off time. Final Signatures and Sea Service time.

[TheFunktopus]

Hi guys,

I'm currently an engine cadet, coming to the end of my first bout at sea, and just have a few questions about signatories to your TRB, sea service and watchkeeping.

Firstly, I'm due to sign off in Ulsan on the 4th, and had my previous DSTO (the 2nd engineer since I signed on in August) sign my TRB's sea service record before he signed off, which was yesterday. Thus I was wondering, for the sake of 4 days, in which I probably won't do much except packing, cleaning my cabin etc; is it really worth having the new 2nd fill out the sample signature, work out sea service and watchkeeping times etc, or would it be OK if I just account for the time up until my initial DSTO signed off?

Secondly, I'm somewhat confused as to what counts as watchkeeping or sea service? I've been onboard since August 16th, and for the majority of that time I've been working Monday-Friday 8am-5pm, Saturday 8am-12pm and had Sunday's off, with UMS rounds from 10pm-11pm every other day, alternating with another cadet on board.

Do I count total time spent onboard as sea service, and just the days I've worked as watchkeeping time (so in essence, minus 1.5 days per week)? Furthermore, we also spent from November 10th to the 26th in drydock, do I subtract that from both sea time and watchekeeping time, since the ship wasn't at sea?

Thanks again for taking the time to read this rather rambling post guys, and apologies for the rather daft questions I keep putting out there.

Cheers, Mike

[Chiefy]

Oh dear lord......the 2nd you did the most time with has paid off just 5 days before you as such you should have got everything signed off long before he went home, in the last 5 days I doubt there will be much more for you to get signed off unless you where being slack about keeping your TRB up to date in which case tough, the new 2nd cant sign for jobs done before he got there.

All your time on board is sea time and sea service, I wasnt aware of any distinction between sea time and watch keeping time for engineers. Given it's a UMS vessel UMS=Watch Time....Dry Dock is still Sea Time, it's just possible you learnt more by being there during the DD (depends how on the lash you went )

You need 9 month sea time and a completed TRB for your CoC so, I would suggest you'll be fine

If any other cadets know different about sea time and watch keeping I'd be interested to know seeing as I am normally the DSTO and havent come across this my self in the past.....Unless I have missed something (which is also possible)

"Normally" if you are getting of a few days after your DSTO then I would suggest he signs up your book until YOU are getting off, if it's much more than a week then you need to get the new one to sign it up. Same when Chiefs are changing within reason we normally issue 1 Record of Sea Service for YOU signed by which ever one of us is on board covering the WHOLE time you where there. Hope that makes a bit of sense

Oh and enjoy the Commodore Hotel in Busan it's not to bad

[Steve]

All your time on board is sea time and sea service, I wasnt aware of any distinction between sea time and watch keeping time for engineers. Given it's a UMS vessel UMS=Watch Time....Dry Dock is still Sea Time,

Chiefy (and Funktopus),

I commend to you the MCA's guidance on Engineering sea service as posted on this forum previously: http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mcga07-hom...e-guide-mn.htm

Day Work

Engineering work carried out at sea, other than that performed on regular watch, will be counted in full towards the overall minimum sea service required. However, this time cannot be counted towards watchkeeping service.

Watchkeeping/UMS duties

Where watchkeeping service is required, this means that the cadet/rating carried out watchkeeping duties (under supervision of a certifiedengineer officer) for not less than 8 hours out of every 24 hour period. Where the vessel is operating a UMS system, it is expected that a 24 hr duty period is carried out in every 72 hour period i.e. "one in three" duty rota.

...

Engineer Officer of the Watch ? Steam or Motor

6 months (4 months of which are on watchkeeping or UMS duties on motor/steam ships) on ships of 350kW or more whilst on main propulsion machinery or UMS duties.

[Chiefy]

ahh well done that man .......

Knew I had seen it somewhere

Right then that makes sense and also explains why I was confused by the initial question

cheers Steve

[TheFunktopus]

Thanks for the info so far guys.

So, being that I've been onboard now 95 days, 98 by the time I leave, and that I've been doing UMS rounds every other day, can I therefore enter 98 days Sea Service, and 42 days watchkeeping? I'm totally confused as to what is considered watchkeeping and what isn't. As I say, my working routine, laid down by the company years ago for cadets consists of Monday-Friday 8am - 5pm, Saturdays 8am - 12pm and have had some Sundays off as study time. In addition, I also did the aforementioned UMS rounds every other day after my second week on board in alternation with another Cadet. Thus, can I claim those days as watchkeeping time?

Apologies if I'm coming across a bit dense here, but I find the TRB layout confusing, and the language used needlessly obtuse. It's as if we Brits get some sort of thrill out of making things more difficult than they need be.

[GuinnessMan]

For starters, 2nd should not be signing your watchkeeping time or sea service testimonials. That is what your Chief Engineer is for. 2nd is there to sign off tasks and monthly progress bit and what not. Discharge book is done by Captain and handed back to you.

When it comes to UMS and watch-keeping, last I heard UMS does not count as watch-keeping time as it is only day work and all you do is day work. You probably won't have done much in the way of watch keeping tasks (I know from my class none of the lads who had UMS knew how to take over a watch!). I'm not entirely sure how to go about claiming your watchkeeping time and what not as I have never been on a vessel with UMS so all I have ever done is watch-keeping.

You require 6 months of sea-time as a cadet to be eligible for your CoC and four months of that must be watchkeeping. My friend has just found out, to his dismay, that even though he is two days short of watchkeeping and that he might as well be over 2 months short as he has to go back and do two days on a watchkeeping ship.

[Chiefy]

ermmm no UMS does count, otherwise ALL my cadets would never get qualified, we dont do watch keeping (unless we have broken "something big")...however it normally counts as 1/3rd of sea time as per the M Notice (which I have just re-read ) as they assume you will be paired with a watch keeper and do routine stuff like the log book etc on a 1 in 3 basis.

As for cadets not being able to give or take a handover that is purely down to the people training them and the people on board, even with UMS there is a proper handover procedure to follow which is (on paper) very much like a traditional watch keeping handover. Information about which is in the Candy's Book of Engineering (the proper name of which escapes me right now)

[Steve]

however it normally counts as 1/3rd of sea time as per the M Notice (which I have just re-read ) as they assume you will be paired with a watch keeper and do routine stuff like the log book etc on a 1 in 3 basis.

The way I read it, one day shadowing the duty engineer is equated to three days of watchkeeping. But that doesn't mean that they would consider three consecutive days shadowing the duty engineer to be equivalent to nine days watchkeeping, in the spirit of "not less than 8 hours out of every 24 hour period". Essentially UMS is treated as 1 in 3 watchkeeping where the period is 72 hours rather than 24.

[Chiefy]

Ermmm yes....UMS is 1/3rd watch keeping time so a six month trip will count as 2 watch keeping...thats how I worked it both as cadet and when going for senior tickets......

[Steve]

Ermmm yes....UMS is 1/3rd watch keeping time so a six month trip will count as 2 watch keeping...thats how I worked it both as cadet and when going for senior tickets......

Nah, what I mean is that a 6 month trip doing UMS duties 1 day in 3 counts as 6 months watchkeeping. That's how the MCA guidance reads to me. Otherwise cadets on UMS ships would be heavily disadvantaged in gaining watchkeeping time - at least 12 months total sea time calculating it your way, as opposed to the minimum 6 months required.

[GuinnessMan]

Nah, what I mean is that a 6 month trip doing UMS duties 1 day in 3 counts as 6 months watchkeeping. That's how the MCA guidance reads to me. Otherwise cadets on UMS ships would be heavily disadvantaged in gaining watchkeeping time - at least 12 months total sea time calculating it your way, as opposed to the minimum 6 months required.

I don't see how on a 6 month trip, if you did 1 day in 3 watchkeeping duties you would get 6 months watch-keeping time. That doesn't sound right to me...

However Engineers only require 4 months of watch-keeping time, so it is possible on a UMS ship and if you ask nicely i'm sure you can get that all in....

[koolcollins25]

please enlighten me more on this, what is the meaning of the watchkeeping and UMS you all have been talking about?
I am still a cadet in academy.

[steamer]

UMS is where the engine room is left unmanned at night, and watchkeeping is, well...ummm-being on watch.......but I'm sure you knew that anyway and were pulling our legs!!

[penfold]

UMS means you are a day worker and get to go to bed at night like normal people(unless the ship's manoeuvring or something's not working properly), watchkeeping means that 4 hours out of every 12(or possibly 6 out of 12 on some coastal craft, but that sucks massively) you're in the engine room or ECR minding the shop.

Editted to add: on UMS ships the E/O cabins usually have repeater alarm panels.

[Randomist]

please enlighten me more on this, what is the meaning of the watchkeeping and UMS you all have been talking about?
I am still a cadet in academy.

UMS stands for Un-manned machinery space or Un-Manned Space.

The most common type of UMS is an engine room where all the engineers are dayworkers and go to bed at night. There is a computer system that monitors the operation and in the event of a serious alarm, triggered by an equipment malfunction for example, an alarm will sound in the duty engineers' cabin and he will make his way to the engine room to rectify the problem.

Alternatively, I have seen systems which, when an alarm sounds in the ER, an alarm with indicator panel will also sound on the Bridge, which is always manned and the officer of the watch will then contact the duty engineer.