Does anyone else find this.......?

[purelywelsh!]

I'm a first phase cadet, but im not straight out of school..... I've been to university and have a degree already and so wouldn't consider myself and a slow person.
Has anyone else had any officers that have been extremely patronising towards them? Also, that we are not treated as "trainee officers"....more as school children that need the correct procedures drummed into them?
I understand completely that we are new to this job and that everything we do is closely observed and intervention is often required, yet I feel that the view towards cadets is somewhat outdated.

There will be those who strongly disagree with the argument "I had that when I was a cadet, it is just part of what you have to do....." but I think this is un-necessary in most cases.

I'd be interested on people opinions from both older sea farers and younger ones.......

[Jonny]

I've got a degree, but to be honest I'm not really bothered how I'm treated over the next 3 years as long as I get trained properly. It's a dangerous job people need to make sure you understand every aspect of it. From doing my degree there were some amount of numpty's on it and if I was training them you would probably have to treat them like they were in nursery.

[ETwhat?]

There seems to be a level of acceptance that as a cadet you are the lowest of the low and deserve no respect, and that as officers who are training you may have had to do crappy jobs and were treated poorly by their officers then as a bit of 'life experience' you should get the same.

I disagree with the idea that a cadet needs to prove himself to be respected, they are a person and as such should be treated with a certain level of respect.
Crappy jobs are a part of the job, and while i feel that at times cadets end up doing them and miss out on a more valuble experience that doesnt occur everyday and that thats a degree of poor planning. but just as its a crappy job isnt a reason to complain. However where missed oportunites occur it does highlight that the designated training officer needs more education on that aspect of his role

Talking down and treating you like a child, in college it happens as they are used to teaching 16-20 yr olds and unlike a university they will have classes that have massive age ranges mines 17-41 so everything is taught in the basic format. At sea it happens as everything is generally covered from the first step, and in basic detail so that everyone can follow it. when it comes to safety or not distroying the really expensive thing then yeah im happy to take the baby steps.

So i agree that some of the methods used for the training are outdated but as the sea training is totally dependant on the officers its very hard to change/ provide a standard across different boats

[CharlieDelta]

Has anyone else had any officers that have been extremely patronising towards them? Also, that we are not treated as "trainee officers"....more as school children that need the correct procedures drummed into them?

I think a lot has to do with the attitude of the cadet. Once you prove that you are willing to learn and that you are actually learning, it is very difficult for anyone to question your motivation or your abilities.

I didn't have any problems on my first trip. Sure, I got the **** ripped out of me a few times for speaking before thinking, but it was all pretty friendly banter.

The people who don't get on well are usually the ones who assume that because they're training to be an officer they're automatically "above" other crew members, who show no motivation or have a bit of a chip on their shoulder. Having little or no regard for your own personal safety or the safety of others doesn't go down well either.

Be organised - know what you've done and what you need to do. Don't be militant and go to your training officer saying "I need to do this, sort it out" or "I've done that, why should I do it again?". If you have a good relationship with those who are training you, you'll get what you need done.

[coldo]

Good thread.

I'm 24, got a degree already, worked in the 'real world' for a couple of years, earned 25k+ before so i'm not a kid, i realise the opportunity i've got and i realise that i NEED to complete the course, qualify and be good at my job in order to sort a career out (again).

However on the ship, to be honest i was very very close to saying the wrong thing to some officers who treated me like a kid, spoke to me like sh!t and generally gave me no respect. On the most part, it was excellent, most people were polite, helpful, gave me the time of day but some seen the ****ey stripe as a licence to take the piss and talk to me like sh!t.

That said, i think it's part of the job, they've all (mostly) been cadets and i dare say 'back in the day' it was much worse so think ourselves lucky that there are human rights and all the political bullsh!t stopping us being raped and tortured.

[GuinnessMan]

Good thread.

I'm 24, got a degree already, worked in the 'real world' for a couple of years, earned 25k+ before so i'm not a kid, i realise the opportunity i've got and i realise that i NEED to complete the course, qualify and be good at my job in order to sort a career out (again).

However on the ship, to be honest i was very very close to saying the wrong thing to some officers who treated me like a kid, spoke to me like sh!t and generally gave me no respect. On the most part, it was excellent, most people were polite, helpful, gave me the time of day but some seen the ****ey stripe as a licence to take the piss and talk to me like sh!t.

That said, i think it's part of the job, they've all (mostly) been cadets and i dare say 'back in the day' it was much worse so think ourselves lucky that there are human rights and all the political bullsh!t stopping us being raped and tortured.

My two cents: -

Just because you have a degree before you started the course is all very nice and lovely, however it does mean precisely jack in this industry. Unless it is a maritime or engineering related topic then it is irrelevant to the job in hand.

I'd also like to point out that you are cadets, lowest of the low, bottom of the pile, use whatever description you like. Therefore, the Officers you work for are responsible for your own safety. As a cadet, you are a child in essence. You may consider something to be completely safe when it isn't and you won't have the experience or knowledge to know any different or any better. Respect is something you will earn as you progress through your course, it is not something that is going to be instantly given.

Oh, and having come from a long line of RN and MN Officers, I found your final point about cadets being raped and tortured to be highly offensive. That is not and has never been the norm, it is the exception and when people commit said offences they are justly punished for it.

[coldo]

My two cents: -

Just because you have a degree before you started the course is all very nice and lovely, however it does mean precisely jack in this industry. Unless it is a maritime or engineering related topic then it is irrelevant to the job in hand.

I'd also like to point out that you are cadets, lowest of the low, bottom of the pile, use whatever description you like. Therefore, the Officers you work for are responsible for your own safety. As a cadet, you are a child in essence. You may consider something to be completely safe when it isn't and you won't have the experience or knowledge to know any different or any better. Respect is something you will earn as you progress through your course, it is not something that is going to be instantly given.

Oh, and having come from a long line of RN and MN Officers, I found your final point about cadets being raped and tortured to be highly offensive. That is not and has never been the norm, it is the exception and when people commit said offences they are justly punished for it.

Having some life experience before starting a cadetship does mean jack... because it shows i'm not wet behind the ears, straight out of school, never had to deal with bosses or authority in the workplace, thus i'd expect them to treat me as an adult. If i was working in my previous role ashore and we had a 20 something year old trainee i'd definately talk to them a bit differently than i would a 16 year old straight out of school - as they know how the world works a bit.

I totally agree that as a cadet, we are lowest of the low, no arguements and i appreciate the responsibility we put on the qualified officers however i don't think that justifies cadets being treated like **** or spoken to in a way in which they wouldn't be spoken to ashore.

As for the last comment.... lighten up! I was taking the piss, i'd like to think if any cadet was raped or tortured then it'd be dealt with by the correct authorities as firmly as it should be.

(for the record, i wasn't treated badly or unfairly at all, just a couple of people i came across didn't speak to me or deal with me the way i would have hoped.)

[D-Triv]

I suppose I'll be occupying some sort of middle ground. I'm not fresh out of school 16 but I haven't been through Uni and I've been working regular jobs alongside my education for 5 years. Though I'll obviously not know exactly how I feel about it until I'm subject to it, I'm prepared to deal with being the lowest of the low. Yes, life experience may help you cope with it personally, but as mentioned life on board is a whole different business to life ashore. I'm from a long line of Mariners in my family so I have no misconceptions about the job. At the end of the day, it's your Cadetship. It's the job between what you have now and the job you really want as a fully qualified Officer so perhaps it's not worth getting too concerned over the odd snide comment or arsey senior officer with a chip on his shoulder.

[chris]

You shouldn't rely on the officers for your safety, as the good people at the HSE will tell you its everybody's responsibility.

On my last ship the 2nd electrician officer was encouraging me to work on a live supply since it was less work than finding out where to switch it off (although recommended practice is to isolate systems before working on them unless they are essential systems - this one wasn't) and the 3rd electrician seemed happy to work in the engine casing (not technically a confined space but near enough) knowing that the exhaust from the diesel engine was leaking. He later complained of a headache and I persuaded him to take a gas mater in to test the air - turns out there was a bit too big of a reading for H2S!

"Crappy jobs are a part of the job, and while i feel that at times cadets end up doing them and miss out on a more valuble experience that doesnt occur everyday and that thats a degree of poor planning. but just as its a crappy job isnt a reason to complain. However where missed oportunites occur it does highlight that the designated training officer needs more education on that aspect of his role"

I did my fair share of low skill jobs (such as assisting the lampy) and missed a few more valuable experiences such as lift maintenance with the fleet lift expert / fault finding the automation system... I'd put that down to poor planning by my DTO who didnt ask for an ETO cadet, didnt like the idea of ETO training etc, didnt think cruise ships were getting more complex, thought shore based electrician training was sufficient. You get the picture.

But overall I still had a useful experience on-board but it was mostly driven by myself arranging my own taskbook 'Electro Technical Observation' tasks.

[GuinnessMan]

You shouldn't rely on the officers for your safety, as the good people at the HSE will tell you its everybody's responsibility.

On my last ship the 2nd electrician officer was encouraging me to work on a live supply since it was less work than finding out where to switch it off (although recommended practice is to isolate systems before working on them unless they are essential systems - this one wasn't) and the 3rd electrician seemed happy to work in the engine casing (not technically a confined space but near enough) knowing that the exhaust from the diesel engine was leaking. He later complained of a headache and I persuaded him to take a gas mater in to test the air - turns out there was a bit too big of a reading for H2S!

All of that shows a really poor safety culture on board the ship you were on! I hope you raised the correct Non-Conformance Report for the 2nd Electrician and the appropriate Near Miss for the 3rd Electrician. You can all scoff at such things, but having recently had two crew near kill themselves doing something similar to the above, then I will go on about it.

Risking your life or doing something incredibly dangerous to get a job done isn't manly, tough or makes you look hard. It is highly moronic, idiotic and likely to get you or some other poor bastard killed or seriously injured in the future. I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't particularly want to become an MAIB statistic....

[Squareleg28]

Just a quick q related to GM's post. Is this difficult for a Cadet to do? Or poses problems, ie you refuse to do work cause it is not safe and then the person directing you is arsey and hinders your training trb, or people get pissed out if you report them and then bad atmosphere?

Don't get me wrong, I would rather somone be pissed off than myself or another gassed or electrocuted, just thinking about how it could be hard for a cadet in said postion?

[ETwhat?]

Ideally reporting a near miss shoudnt be an action that casues a repercussion on yourself, if it did it would then only really work if it was a senior officer who was doing it. If someone then gets pulled up and remined of the proper working practices then they shouldnt go hunting out the person who has ideally stopped them becoming a statistic. however if you did find that having followed the correct procedure the officer/crewman was 'picking' on you in anyway then ideally its a case of going back to the head of department, after all if they made an issue out of your first report then they will be on yourside as they will have agreed that you acted correctly (otherwise they wouldnt have made an issue of it to the person concerened) if the ship atmosphere becomes too unpleasant again you cna ask to get off, and from what my company has taught us about their safety reporting they would then back it up.

I had to do a fair amount of live work althought at 230v and we took precautions for it, it also was for a valid reason but certainly the ideal of isolation and locking out breakers wasnt overly employed :s

[GuinnessMan]

Just a quick q related to GM's post. Is this difficult for a Cadet to do? Or poses problems, ie you refuse to do work cause it is not safe and then the person directing you is arsey and hinders your training trb, or people get pissed out if you report them and then bad atmosphere?

Don't get me wrong, I would rather somone be pissed off than myself or another gassed or electrocuted, just thinking about how it could be hard for a cadet in said postion?

No, not at all. All companies will have the NCR and Near Miss forms as a part of their SMS, which you "should" have read upon joining the vessel. Ask your safety officer for a copy, or (like most companies) have a search on the computer, fill it up and hand it over. Also, when it comes to the Near Miss and the NCR's, they are supposed to be anonymous, so you don't go giving names. It all goes to the company's safety department and may be edited somewhat and then passed around the fleet in the form of a "Memo". Don't just learn from your own mistakes, learn from others too. Also, it is unlikely that if you submit a near miss or NCR, then there is going to be a search for the subject of it. Simply put, we have more important stuff to do, and other idiots to deal with.

You also have a responsibility for your own Safety. If you are asked to do something that you consider to be dangerous or you don't fully understand what you they want you to do, then ask for clarification. They have to provide you with that and it would save everyone a headache of you killing yourself or buggering it up. If what they ask you to do is dangerous and they are not following the company's set procedures (e.g. Permits to Work, etc) and they are not going to give you the safety gear, then refuse. It would considered to be an illegal order, something akin to donkey kong'ing barrels of sludge overboard. Just, be polite and explain WHY you can't do it.

Also, they have no right to impede upon your training as it is YOUR training. If they are being arsey, then either sort it out with them or go above their head. I always went with "sort it out with them" option.

[chris]

GuinessMan - Well I wasn't impressed by the safety culture on board. I wasn't familiar with the safety reporting forms (may well have been in the SMS) but I did mention them both to the Chief Engineer during one of our regular informal chats.

I felt that reporting it in any other way would have made 1. the not very good working relationship with the 2nd worse and 2. have got the friendly 3rd into trouble

[GuinnessMan]

Those are fair points. However, when it comes to writing these reports, they are supposed to be anonymous, so no mentioning of ranks or names. Just "an Officer".

The forms will be a part of the HSE or SHEQ or HSEQ section of your SMS. When you first join a new company, that is the first task you should do. Familiarise yourself with their SMS.