HND Confusion

[CharlieDelta]

Right the HND has me bamboozled. On the WMA website, there's five phases, with roughly the same length as the FD. It also says the HND provides academic exemptions for mate/master. (See course list -> deck cadet HND -> officer cadet programmes PDF)

On the Carnival website there's seen phases. I'm confused!!

[Randomist]

Re: HND Confusion

There are 7 phases for the HND, are you sure you're not on HNC? It was my understanding Warsash doesn't take any more HND cadets.

The exemptions for Mates/Masters is that the NVQ provides a base for the mates and master exams, if you didn't have the NVQ you would have to take scotvec exams before you take orals.

The NVQ means you don't have to take these exams. I'm not sure how many phases HNC has, I would have thought it would be 7, but they may have changed it, it's new.

[Malim Sahib]

Re: HND Confusion

There are 7 phases for the HND, are you sure you're not on HNC? It was my understanding Warsash doesn't take any more HND cadets.

The exemptions for Mates/Masters is that the NVQ provides a base for the mates and master exams, if you didn't have the NVQ you would have to take scotvec exams before you take orals.

The NVQ means you don't have to take these exams. I'm not sure how many phases HNC has, I would have thought it would be 7, but they may have changed it, it's new.

The NVQ route for Mates/Masters, has I believe, been terminated as of last year, therefore all candidates for Chief Mate have to sit the Scotvec exams.
However, if you have an HND then you have some Scotvec exemptions - you only have to sit two exams, one being Navigation and the other Stability (both of which have a high attrition rate - they're not easy) and are at college for circa 3 1/2 months.
If you do not have an HND (i.e. HNC) then you have to go to college for 9 months and sit about half a dozen Scotvec exams, and if you fail more than 2 (I think) you have to sit the whole lot again.
Basically if you wanted to take the easy route to Chief Mate level you followed through to Not Very Qualified Level 4, however it was, and is, treated as something of a joke compared to the traditional (academically harder) method.
For some reason if you achieved your OOW certification through NVQ then you were only required to complete 12 months seatime before you could achieve NVQ Level 4 and attain your Mates, yet if you followed the older and harder route you required 18 months - the mind boggles.

[Randomist]

Re: HND Confusion

Ah yeah, that makes sence.

HND used to excuse you from scotvecs at mates/masters, now you have to take them. You can still take the HND for OOW tho.

[CharlieDelta]

Re: HND Confusion

Well Carnival have said HND, but from my research (MNTB site) it seems the new way is the HNC, with five phases, and an option to do an extra 26 weeks at the end to get an HND. The Carnival website suggests that there's 7 phases. This is where the confusion is. It seems the HNC will sort you out to OOW, and HND does mates/masters theory.

Successful completion of HND (Part 2) academic assessments provides prequalification to Chief Mate/Master level. (Marine engineering systems; Emergency planning; SQA/MCA Chief Mate papers and the Mates oral examination will need to be undertaken after the necessary sea service.)

http://www.mntb.org.uk/Content/Resource ... ded%29.pdf

Page 41

I'm still confused! Warsash are still calling it an HND on the website, and their "framework" is at:

http://www.warsashacademy.co.uk/courses ... chemes.pdf

Page 11

But then that's for 2009-2010...

Still confused.

[Malim Sahib]

Re: HND Confusion

Ah yeah, that makes sence.

HND used to excuse you from scotvecs at mates/masters, now you have to take them. You can still take the HND for OOW tho.

It didn't excuse you from all the exams - you were/are still required to do two if following the traditional (examination) route.
However If you had HND + NVQ Level 3 then you had no written exams at all, only a few reports to write just like when you were a cadet (and on much the same topics).

[Malim Sahib]

Re: HND Confusion

Well Carnival have said HND, but from my research (MNTB site) it seems the new way is the HNC, with five phases, and an option to do an extra 26 weeks at the end to get an HND. The Carnival website suggests that there's 7 phases. This is where the confusion is. It seems the HNC will sort you out to OOW, and HND does mates/masters theory.

I'm still confused! Warsash are still calling it an HND on the website, and their "framework" is at:

Still confused.

The 7 phases is the HND course, with the 7th (final) phase encompassing some of the Mates/Masters theory.
The HNC is 5 phases and is the older route that is the direct NVQ replacement of the old ONC system from the 1960s, however to attain Chief Mate/2nd Engineer certification with only an HNC you'll still be required to spend 9 months at college, even if you do have NVQ Level 3.
The only companies I've heard of which do not send people on the HND course are those coastal outfits, e.g. Fisher Tankers etc, everyone else (i.e. all the Deepsea outfits) send you on the HND, or, as now, Foundation Degree (England only, they don't exist in Scotland) which despite the bells and whistles and fancy branding, leaves you with pretty much the same end result as the HND, i.e. do a few terms at Uni plus a dissertation and bish bash bosh you get a proper degree.
Therefore, I'd presume you will be doing the 7 phase HND route - 4 phases at college, 3 at sea.

Clear as mud?

Don't worry about being confused, most of us have long since realised that the Colleges have even less of an idea of what's going on in the real and academic worlds than the MCA - and that's saying something!

[CharlieDelta]

Re: HND Confusion

So as a cruisey-type-person, should I expect to do the HNC only or the HNC plus the extra bit on the end for the HND? I know I really should ask the company but you lot are the font of all knowledge.

The 7 phase HND route isn;t mentioned anywhere on the WMA website, so that's confusing too.

The concern I have is how easy it will be to get the mates/masters ticket post-OOW.

[Malim Sahib]

Re: HND Confusion

So as a cruisey-type-person, should I expect to do the HNC only or the HNC plus the extra bit on the end for the HND? I know I really should ask the company but you lot are the font of all knowledge.

The 7 phase HND route isn;t mentioned anywhere on the WMA website, so that's confusing too.

The concern I have is how easy it will be to get the mates/masters ticket post-OOW.

You should expect to do the HND, but it'd be wise to double check with the company and certainly reinforce the point that you want to do HND - it will make life a little bit easier in the long run.
Since the NVQ Level 4 route is finished, regardless of whether you're doing HNC/HND you'll still have to sit the written Scotvec examinations for Chief Mate level. The only difference being whether you have to go to college for 3 1/2 months (HND) to do it or 9 months (HNC), however you'll still require 18 months seatime before you can go to college.
That means seatime gained after you get your OOW ticket - cadet seatime does not count.
For someone like me who works 'equal time' it can take 3 years to get 18 months seatime, however if you stay on cruise ships post qualifying it'll take you just over 2 years, as cruise ship people generally work 3 months on/6 weeks off, whilst most of the tanker/cargo people work either 3 months on/2 months off or are 'equal time' e.g. 3 months on/3 months off (like me).
After attaining your Mates ticket you'll then have to attain another 18 months seatime on top of that originally accumulated before you can sit your Masters, therefore by then you'll have at least 18 months seatime with an OOW ticket and 18 months with a Chief Mates ticket.
The post HND+Scotvec Masters course is only a month long since you've already covered the theory in your HND together with a little bit during the Mates course, therefore this month at college is effectively a month of solid revision, thence you take your Oral.

[UK_academic]

Re: HND Confusion

Hi,

I'm one of the Course Leaders at WMA. Let my try and clear up some of the confusion. Cadets undertake the HND or FdSc route, depending on their qualifications. The HNC route is for rating-to-officer students who have sufficient sea-time, and is not a "cadetship" route.

The Warsash HND has this year changed from seven phases to five phases, with the first "new" course arrangement starting from last September. The overall content is the same as the old HND, it is just arranged slightly differently!

Cadets who have completed the HND cadetship, and who have sufficient sea time after qualifying, have to take the SQA Navigation and Stability/Structure exams, along with the MCA Oral exam, to achieve a Mates ticket, and then after more sea-time, a Masters Oral exam to obtain a Master ticket. During the HND, you learn the academic theory up to Mate/Master level, which means that when you want to take your Chief Mate SQA/MCA exams, you only need a one-term revision course. Students who have taken the HNC route will need to have sufficient sea-time, and then undertake a three-term course to learn the academic theory, and then take the SQA/MCA oral exams.

If you have any queries, please don't hesitate to contact WMA and ask directly!

[Randomist]

Re: HND Confusion

Clear and in depth description from uk_academic brings this thread to a close
Mod Lock. Closed as topic was resolved

[dawg]

Re: HND Confusion

Relax... you don't need to press all the buttons...

[CharlieDelta]

Re: HND Confusion

Now now scotty, don't bite, us deckies get to press as many buttons as you clunkies. But we have air conditioning, and we're generally much more attractive.

Pressing buttons is fun.

[Randomist]

Re: HND Confusion

Generally if we don't know what a button does, we press it and see what happens