Some specific questions about Royal Fleet Auxiliary (Armed Forces Careers Office did not know the answers)

[simonator]

Hi,

I went into the careers office today- the navy website just said to pop in without appointment... but the people on the reception desk didn't know what the RFA was, and ultimately the person I needed was not in today.
A kind lady from the navy tried her best to help, but said I should go back another day to speak to the correct person.

Perhaps someone here might be able to answer these questions-

1.) I keep reading that the RFA are not recruiting many deck officer cadets... but some of those comments are now quite old. Does anyone know what the current situation is like- ie, how many deck cadet slots there are likely to be this year?

2.) Do they primarily recruit/employ at certain times of the year- ie around now ready for September college enrollment... or do they continually recruit? If I did happen to get offered a place, would I typically have to wait for the next college year before employment commenced... or would they potentially start me up with something else before college (obviously there is the 7 week Dartmouth course)?

3.) I fulfill all of the GCSE/UCAS requirements for Engineer Officer Cadet, but for Deck Officer (which is the only thing I'm interested in) they require a B in GCSE English, whereas I only have a C.
Since doing my GCSEs 16 years ago (!!!), my English skills have improved greatly, and I've actually even become a CELTA qualified English teacher! I'm confident that I could sit the GCSE paper tomorrow and get an A grade 'off the bat'... but unfortunately it's not that simple- I would need to wait 6 months until September college enrollment, then attend a one-year course that I feel will be excruciatingly below my ability level... thus setting back my potential sea-faring career by a further two years! I already feel I'm at the upper-end of the age I'd feel comfortable becoming a cadet, so this is not acceptable.
My question is, do you think they'd ever relax this entry requirement if they can evidently see it's not an issue, or will it be 'rules are rules'?

4.) The 7 week Dartmouth induction course- what goes on here? Is this a 'Platoon' style basic training; up at 5am to undertake 20 mile runs through the woods/obstacle courses/marching/shoe shining etc?
Will RFA officer cadets be in groups mixed with regular naval officer intake, or will it be dedicated classes of RFA intake only?

5.) I read that the RFA require you to complete three years of service after graduating as an officer. This means I'm looking at almost seven years from now if I were to sign up today (assuming I do a HND route & have a delay before starting). I'm okay with this... but I'd just like to know exactly what this situation is; I'll be a civilian, what if I just say "I'm not coming in to work tomorrow or ever again"? Will I be imprisoned? Fined? What?

6.) Am I correct in thinking that the RFA qualifications/training is directly transferable to the rest of the merchant navy- so after I've done my time, I can instantly step over to commercial tankers/containers/cruise lines etc?... Whereas the Royal Navy training is not directly transferable?

7.) I have a completely unfounded assumption that promotion in the RFA is likely to be slower/tougher than in the rest of the merchant navy; I imagine that- as a mature candidate- if I work extra hard & demonstrate exceptional performance, I could rise faster among the ranks of the officers in the regular MN who are perhaps on average (I believe) younger & have less life experience than RFA officers. I think this situation will be compounded by the relatively small numbers of new cadets being inducted into the RFA (see question 1).
Is there any basis of truth in this?


Sorry for the long post, thanks in advance for any advice!

[Ducki52]

In reference to point 3, I only have a C in GCSE English, yet I meet all other academic requirments and both of the chaps that I spoke to on the phone wouldn't consider me at all, I tried pleading the whole mature student/prior accreditation thing, the fact that the army has given me key skills qualifications that are equivilant to GCSEs, all to no avail. They will not accept you with a C in GCSE English for love nor money.

[Steve]

Naval recruitment are clueless about the RFA. It was a mistake ever allowing RFA recruitment to be merged in. Call Katherine in the office. Hopefully the number on the website goes straight through to her.

1.) I keep reading that the RFA are not recruiting many deck officer cadets... but some of those comments are now quite old. Does anyone know what the current situation is like- ie, how many deck cadet slots there are likely to be this year?

I don't know for certain how many are being recruited this year, but there's always been trouble getting enough candidates who can pass an AIB since they introduced that method of recruiting. The last intake was of 6, so I'd expect about 6-12 per year.

would I typically have to wait for the next college year before employment commenced... or would they potentially start me up with something else before college (obviously there is the 7 week Dartmouth course)?

They insist you do Dartmouth first, and AFAIK there is only one course per year, so your entry date would be based on starting BRNC in late October.

3.) My question is, do you think they'd ever relax this entry requirement if they can evidently see it's not an issue, or will it be 'rules are rules'?

You need to speak to Katherine about this one but I expect it will be flexible, depending on what else your CV has to offer.

5.) I read that the RFA require you to complete three years of service after graduating as an officer. This means I'm looking at almost seven years from now if I were to sign up today (assuming I do a HND route & have a delay before starting). I'm okay with this... but I'd just like to know exactly what this situation is; I'll be a civilian, what if I just say "I'm not coming in to work tomorrow or ever again"? Will I be imprisoned? Fined? What?

They have never to my knowledge ever attempted to enforce return of service. In theory you would pay back training expenses pro-rata for unexpired return of service. I suspect the contract is leakier than an LSL on the beach at the end of its life.

6.) Am I correct in thinking that the RFA qualifications/training is directly transferable to the rest of the merchant navy- so after I've done my time, I can instantly step over to commercial tankers/containers/cruise lines etc?... Whereas the Royal Navy training is not directly transferable?

You get exactly the same qualifications as any other Merchant Navy cadet.

7.) I have a completely unfounded assumption that promotion in the RFA is likely to be slower/tougher than in the rest of the merchant navy; I imagine that- as a mature candidate- if I work extra hard & demonstrate exceptional performance, I could rise faster among the ranks of the officers in the regular MN who are perhaps on average (I believe) younger & have less life experience than RFA officers. I think this situation will be compounded by the relatively small numbers of new cadets being inducted into the RFA (see question 1).
Is there any basis of truth in this?

Yes. Except for the bit about commercial being younger and having less life experience. There hasn't been a deck officer promotion board in 2-3 years. No board = no promotions. Public sector inflexibility.

[Steve]

both of the chaps that I spoke to on the phone wouldn't consider me at all

Don't suppose you know who you spoke to? There's only two RFA personnel in the recruitment office (decreasing to one shortly) and one of them is a girl. Both of them are Scottish. If you spoke to anyone else I wouldn't expect to get any sense out of them.

[Ducki52]

Don't suppose you know who you spoke to? There's only two RFA personnel in the recruitment office (decreasing to one shortly) and one of them is a girl. Both of them are Scottish. If you spoke to anyone else I wouldn't expect to get any sense out of them.

I really couldn't say, and I'm pretty sure they weren't Scottish, although it was a womans voice on the automated answer thingummy. Although I don't expect special treatment, I would have thought that, if I were to become a cadet with the RFA, it would be treated as some sort of service transfer of someone with a proven track record and access to my SJARs etc, probably resulting in a lot less paperwork and maybe being slightly easier? I don't know, I just crossed the RFA off my list. Although it may be worth getting in touch with Katherine?

[simonator]

They will not accept you with a C in GCSE English for love nor money.

Damn!

Well, thanks for clearing that up for me!

The main reasons why I'm looking at the RFA route are-
* The vastly better income during training
* My perception of relatively tougher standards & additional skills (such as keeping station for replenishment at sea) that would perhaps set me up well for the rest of my career

... But I've started to think that these would be outweighed by-
* Being a military target in war-zones
* Committing to obligatory 3 years beyond qualification
* My assumption of slower career progression

... So I think I was already leaning towards regular MN anyhow, but it seems this takes the decision out of my hands.

[simonator]

Although it may be worth getting in touch with Katherine?

Doh... my thread has increased my own competition!

[Ducki52]

... But I've started to think that these would be outweighed by-
* Being a military target in war-zones
* Committing to obligatory 3 years beyond qualification
* My assumption of slower career progression

... So I think I was already leaning towards regular MN anyhow, but it seems this takes the decision out of my hands.

Well being on a 2 way range isn't particularly fun, but you'll get body armour and a helmet if you ever have to expose yourself to the baddies, and if anything does happen your old dear/old lady will be well set up, and 3 years time barred is 3 years guaranteed work, and promotion is crap in 80% of the MOD anyway.

[simonator]

Thanks for your input Steve!

Yes. Except for the bit about commercial being younger and having less life experience.

I didn't mean that as a slight to regular MN... just that I'd heard that the RFA tend to go for slightly more mature recruits rather than predominantly school leavers... is that not the case?

There hasn't been a deck officer promotion board in 2-3 years. No board = no promotions.

Wow? What? Are you saying it's impossible to get promotion in the RFA?... Committed to three years service with zero hope of ever making second officer even if the sun permanently shines from your rear!?

[Steve]

Although I don't expect special treatment, I would have thought that, if I were to become a cadet with the RFA, it would be treated as some sort of service transfer of someone with a proven track record and access to my SJARs etc, probably resulting in a lot less paperwork and maybe being slightly easier? I don't know, I just crossed the RFA off my list. Although it may be worth getting in touch with Katherine?

It isn't really a service transfer, and the RFA (stupidly) doesn't officially/directly recognise a lot of relevant military/naval adquals gained from prior service. As a couple of examples, they don't recognise the RN training for boat coxswains and insist that ex-RN ABs repeat the exact same course to qualify as coxswain on the same boat in the RFA, even if they hold RN instructor qualifications. They don't recognise gunnery qualifications either - you could be an RN Close Range Weapons Instructor qualified to instruct the whole range of 5.56mm to 30mm, but the RFA won't let you touch a gun until you've gone on the basic operators course again.

There are a few things that do carry over, like your security check (or DV if you've got that), and naval/military experience will count in your favour during the recruitment process, it's just afterwards that it doesn't count for ****!

I'd say until you've had the word from 2nd Officer Moggach in RFA recruitment, you haven't heard the final word. I don't really know what latitude she has, but she's the recruitment officer. Anyone else is RN recruitment or some sort of civil servant drone and just following a script.

[simonator]

3 years time barred is 3 years guaranteed work

I guess that is a good way of looking at it!!

but you'll get body armour and a helmet if you ever have to expose yourself to the baddies

if anything does happen your old dear/old lady will be well set up

Ha! Not much consolation for me!

and promotion is crap in 80% of the MOD anyway.

... Perhaps is a good reason for me to avoid this then.

[Steve]

I didn't mean that as a slight to regular MN... just that I'd heard that the RFA tend to go for slightly more mature recruits rather than predominantly school leavers... is that not the case?

I think it was The H wrote that on another thread and I disagreed with it there, as I will do here. My experience of recent MN cadets regardless of sponsor is that they span a wide age range. If The H thinks differently I'd like more details from him...

Wow? What? Are you saying it's impossible to get promotion in the RFA?... Committed to three years service with zero hope of ever making second officer even if the sun permanently shines from your rear!?

As I said, you aren't really committed to three years service. That'd be about the practical minimum for promotion anyway as recent promotion boards have required a minimum of four reports (appraisal at the end of an appointment), and you'll only get a maximum of two per year, so by the time a board rolls around you'll have done a minimum of 2-3 years anyway. The MoD bean counters won't allow more than the minimum number of promotions to fill the available billets at each grade, therefore frequency of promotion boards depends on openings higher up. There's been a recent cull of senior officers under the MoD's early release scheme so things might speed up again. The big step is usually getting from 3rd to 2nd Officer. Then you can get on the right courses, get promoted, stay as a 1st Off forever, get married, have children, get frustrated, resign, go to a lucrative post elsewhere. That's what usually happens and has caused a bit of a crisis of manpower at that level.

[Ducki52]

It isn't really a service transfer, and the RFA (stupidly) doesn't officially/directly recognise a lot of relevant military/naval adquals gained from prior service. As a couple of examples, they don't recognise the RN training for boat coxswains and insist that ex-RN ABs repeat the exact same course to qualify as coxswain on the same boat in the RFA, even if they hold RN instructor qualifications. They don't recognise gunnery qualifications either - you could be an RN Close Range Weapons Instructor qualified to instruct the whole range of 5.56mm to 30mm, but the RFA won't let you touch a gun until you've gone on the basic operators course again.

There are a few things that do carry over, like your security check (or DV if you've got that), and naval/military experience will count in your favour during the recruitment process, it's just afterwards that it doesn't count for ****!

I'd say until you've had the word from 2nd Officer Moggach in RFA recruitment, you haven't heard the final word. I don't really know what latitude she has, but she's the recruitment officer. Anyone else is RN recruitment or some sort of civil servant drone and just following a script.

My bold: Funnily enough, thats exactly what it felt like when I was speaking on the phone, there was not a budge from them, or a 'I'll just go ask the manager', nothing. I was pretty shocked in that they didn't even 'judge my application on its merits' or whatever the MODspeak is for it.

So to get in touch with 2O Moggach/ Katherine, do you just ring the RFA recruitment number and ask for them?

[Steve]

No RFA personnel have been killed in action since 1982, and that was probably the first time since 1945. Haven't lost a ship in peacetime since 1969 either.

[Steve]

So to get in touch with 2O Moggach/ Katherine, do you just ring the RFA recruitment number and ask for them?

I would guess so, but I'll see if I can shake up a direct number for her desk and PM it to you.