HND or Foundation Degree

[tribemad]

Hi all

I am looking at applying for a Deck Cadetship and was wondering is there much different between the HND and the Foundation Degree and do future employers take into count which qualification you do?

Many Thanks in advance

Tribemad

[GuinnessMan]

Hi all

I am looking at applying for a Deck Cadetship and was wondering is there much different between the HND and the Foundation Degree and do future employers take into count which qualification you do?

Many Thanks in advance

Tribemad

Not a massive distance no, Foundation degree has a bit more management stuff.

When it comes to future employment, it has no bearing.

[ETwhat?]

The advantage of a FD program is to gain exemptions (if you do well enough) for the next CoC which in turn means that you wont have to return to college for as long when you wish to progress from 3rd to 2nd. however if your working for a company and they wish that you progress then theres not a problem they will invest in you. if you wish to leave and move to another company then its handy to have it done already, rather than turning up and asking about time off for training.

However thats 5 years from the start of a cadetship so for the first job its really not going to make a difference,

[GuinnessMan]

The advantage of a FD program is to gain exemptions (if you do well enough) for the next CoC which in turn means that you wont have to return to college for as long when you wish to progress from 3rd to 2nd. however if your working for a company and they wish that you progress then theres not a problem they will invest in you. if you wish to leave and move to another company then its handy to have it done already, rather than turning up and asking about time off for training.

However thats 5 years from the start of a cadetship so for the first job its really not going to make a difference,

Your exemptions are separate. Having the FD makes little difference when it comes to exemptions. I've got my 2nd Eng exemptions and I was in the HND class...

[Brimbo]

You do 2nd/Chief exemptions in the HND route, I've just completed my 2nd exemptions, I've opted out of doing my chief exemptions

[size4riggerboots]

Don't forget that the OP is an aspiring DECK cadet, you engine/ETO chappies have slightly different rank progressions to us up in the sunshine!

The HND is being replaced by the HNC, what the actuall difference between the two is I'm not sure, although I think it means you get longer phases which is more like the FD. (HND do 7 phases, FD do 5, over the same time period of three years overall). The HND/HNC only gives you the theory up to OOW, but many people do an extended phase 7, which covers all the Chief Mates/Masters theory and exempts you from having to do the 9 month Chief Mates course later. I'm not sure if it exempts you from having to do the SQA exams for Chief Mates though. The FD covers all the theory up to Chief Mates and Masters, and does exempt you from doing the SQA's. However, the first people to do the FD at Fleetwood are just coming up to the stage where they have enough sea time to go up for their Mates ticket, and I will be watching with interest to see how they do in the Orals, things like Stability are major areas for Chief Mate and some stuff was skimmed over due to time constraints in our lessons. I'm not currently confident that I would be able to deal with Chief Mate stability questions in 5+ years time when I go up for it!

The main difference between the two options is on the HNC/D you will be spoon fed at college, on the FD you're expected to do more research on your own time and FOAFO, rather than be spoon fed everything. The HND had a Training Record Book Portfolio which they had to complete at sea, this comprised of tasks you had to complete and set reports you had to write to get each section finally signed off. You also had to keep a nav work book showing calculations (cel nav, cargo ops etc), met obs and other general bridge watchkeeping stuff etc. I'm not certain now, but I think the HNC now get a Training Record Book like the FD have. The FD training record book simply lists tasks you have to complete/demonstrate an understanding of, to provide evidence of how you did this you keep a Nav AND OPS workbook, in the nav part you show celestial calculations and other bridge stuff you did, in the op's part you write up tasks such as mooring, re-charging fire extinguishers, cargo operations, lifeboat drills, fire drills... basically if you're sensible you'll write up everything you do/see, as you can then give the MCA a nice big fat folder of "stuff what I did" and they will see that you have worked diligently and spent your time learning. If you go to the MCA exam with a folder with only a few pages in it, expect to get beasted in the Orals!

The other major difference between the HNC and the FD is that, in addition to the Nav and Ops workbook, the FD have to do Work Based Learning on the sea phases. This is separate to the workbook and purely for college, it's set by the college and each college does it differently, for example, Warsash set their cadets three or four large reports to write. Fleetwood give you a very broad and open scope, you have to cover certain subjects, but can write about whatever you like, which is generally dictated by what kind of ships you sail on and what happens, in it you can use a lot of the reports you did for your workbook, and tweek them to give it the slant the college wants, which is "We learnt this in college, and this is how I did it on the ship, it's different because... it's better because... it's worse because..." (Lots of critical analysis and evaluation naval gazing stuff).

At the end of the day, I don't think employers give a monkeys about which route you did. The FD might be better for you if you think you might want to go ashore once you've done your cadetship. You can top the FD up to a full degree by doing three months at uni and a dissertation. (The FD students do a "mini" dissertation at college of about 4000 words, it's nuffink compared to a full dissertation of 10,000 words!) However I believe you can also top up the HND/C to a degree... Swings and roundabouts really.

One thing though, I'm an FD student, in my final phase (as in Orals on the 1st Dec Eeeeeeeeeek!!) And I was DISGUSTED to hear today that some phase 1 FD cadets have been saying to HND/C cadets that they "were better than them". I'm doing Orals prep with FD and HND and external candidates, and no-one is "better" than anyone else. At the end of the day, you're a cadet, you're at the bottom of the heap and you only get to lord it over someone else (a bit, don't ever be a proper knob to someone) when you have QUALIFIED, thereby proving that you know your stuff. And even then, you'll only be a 3/O or 4/E, with a long way to go before you can say you know everything. Passing your masters doesn't mean you know everything, I reckon you keep learning for the whole of your career, I hope so anyway.

[Chiefy]

S4.....every days a school day. I learn new stuff pretty much everyday, even if it's just "dont press the tempting big red button under any circumstances......ever ever ever ever"

Brimbo....do your Chief's Exemptions you WILL thank me later not doing them is a false economy as you will be older when it is proven to be more difficult to "get into learning mode" and have to do the academic subject, get them done and out the way, there is enough to learn even WITH exemptions*

*this is not career advice just a point of view

[Brimbo]

I had no choice in doing them Chiefy, though I did want too, at STC 80% of companies pulled funding on the HND ( chief exemptions ) so we couldn't continue with it !

[Chiefy]

Fair comment and tbh it *is* only for your benefit so I can see why the companies might do that......sucks to be you though

[YoungMariner]

Avoiding the SQA's has to be a major benefit on the FD system, I wish it had been available a few years earlier so I could have done that route. The SQA exams at Chief Mates level were the worst thing I've ever done and costs a lot of money to be off work (many companies don't like giving you the 4 months off).
Is there a minimum pass requirement at FD level to get the SQA Exemptions S4?

[AlternativeNavs]

Avoiding the SQA's has to be a major benefit on the FD system, I wish it had been available a few years earlier so I could have done that route. The SQA exams at Chief Mates level were the worst thing I've ever done and costs a lot of money to be off work (many companies don't like giving you the 4 months off).
Is there a minimum pass requirement at FD level to get the SQA Exemptions S4?

The min requirement for degree is 40%

The MCA stipulate a % pass mark for exception depending on the subject. From what I remember some subjects were 60% and some around 80%.

Although there is still some debate about whether or not students do not need to complete any SQA exams, as the first batch of FD students are only now going for Mates tickets - we will soon find out how the MCA handle it.

[YoungMariner]

OK, that will be interesting to see how it goes through. The SQA's are a NIGHTMARE and should be avoided at all cost. Negative marking, fail one results in failing the other, ridiculous questions, some of which are unrealistic and bear no resemblance to the job.

[CharlieDelta]

This topic's been done to death on here.

For deck cadets:

HNC = OOW
HND = OOW plus Mates Theory
FD = OOW plus Mates Theory with SQA exemptions

So FD spend a little bit less time at colege for Mates than HND, who spend a lot less time at college for Mates than HNC.

Most colleges now do HNC, except WMA. WMA run an HNC programme for non-cadet OOW only. Cadets have an induction on phase 1 (used to be called academic ramp I believe), cover OOW subjects in phase 3 (the HNC course), and prepare for OOW SQAs and then do the Mates subjects in phase 5 (the HND course). Phase 5 for HND cadets at WMA is slightly longer than for the FD as FD cadets tend to do most OOW subjects in phase 1 and Mates subjects in phase 3, with phase 5 kept for short courses and orals prep.

You will find some on the FD course (certainly not all) have a bit of a superiority thing going on, which gives FD cadets a bad reputation at sea, despite the majority being lovely people.

Opinions appear split on the benefit of SQA exemptions. Opinions on the usefulness of the FD for work ashore vary too. You must rmembr that we are doing a vocational course. A degree is an academic qualification. A foundation degree is a vocational qualification given an academic name. It is not a degree in the traditional sense. Degrees are for doctors, solicitors, scientists, teachers, engineers (as in the ones that design things) - traditional academic professions. The fact that you can now get a BA in Hair Styling is ridiculous.

The HND and FD are both level 5 on the qualifications framework. The HNC is level 4.

[AlternativeNavs]

http://www.warsashacademy.co.uk/courses/professionalstudies/merchantvesseloperations/chiefmatemasterpostfd/coursedetails.aspx

15 week return to college for HND (Inc 2 x SQA Exams)

8 week return to college for FD

[Randomist]

I agree with CD on this one.

In order for FD to have significant value when applying for shore jobs you would need to do the top up to BA Hons. at the same time.

I think that HND lends itself better to the training environment at sea. HND cadets spend less time in college in phase 1 as the FD cadets, then they go to sea. FD cadets spend more time in college and do all the OOW theory in phase 1. Which is useless when you're on the ship as a first trip cadet. There's no point in knowing how to take an altitude of the sun when you spend most of your time chipping, painting, varnishing, sanding, scrubbing and so forth.