Marine Engineering at STC - HNC/HND/FD?

[agibbs98]

I was hoping to get onto the FdEng or HND course, as I have the grades to do these both.

However, they offered the HNC because of a lack of space on the other courses.

I have no idea what a HNC is, is it worth spending three years of my life doing?

Is it worth just waiting until January until another company potentially gives me a better offer?

Argh, I have like a week at maximum to make this decision...

[CharlieDelta]

HNC is basically to EOOW level only - no 2nd or chief exemptions so you need to go back and do a slightly longer course when you go for your 2nds ticket. Or there might be an option to top up to HND at the end of the course.

On the deck side, HNC = OOW, HND and FD = OOW + exemptions. The chief mates course is about six months for ex-HNC people, few weeks for FD and another few weeks for HND because of the need to sit SQA exams.

Cadetships seem to be moving to an HNC/FD system rather than HND/FD.

[bryan_s]

So... are there any pros with the HNC route?

[GuinnessMan]

HNC is basically to EOOW level only - no 2nd or chief exemptions so you need to go back and do a slightly longer course when you go for your 2nds ticket. Or there might be an option to top up to HND at the end of the course.

On the deck side, HNC = OOW, HND and FD = OOW + exemptions. The chief mates course is about six months for ex-HNC people, few weeks for FD and another few weeks for HND because of the need to sit SQA exams.

Cadetships seem to be moving to an HNC/FD system rather than HND/FD.

Not quite true with Engineering. With the HNC/D option you do also do several units which give you exemptions for your 2nd Eng ticket (nav arc, technical drawing, etc)

The difference between the two relates towards how you do your EOOW and degree prospects. It won't make much of a difference with employers. I know several lads who have got their CoC and have all landed jobs and none of them have the HNC/D or Fd.

Basically, with the FD you have to pass every unit to take your CoC without doing the EK exam (Engineering Knowledge). You have more management stuff and the theory is that you would be promoted faster as you have management training, but don't count on it. Most companies prefer to promote people based on their work and ability, not their educational level.

If you decide to get the full degree, then the FD will allow you to enter University in the last year, whereas the HNC/D will only allow you to enter into 2nd year (max).

Any more questions, feel free to ask.

[Chiefy]

HNC used to (probs still does) give you expemtions from the Academic subjects at 2nds level leaving you to just do the EK's and Orals then at Chiefs you need to do the full lot Academic, EK's and Orals,but you get 2 years to collect all the pass marks

And if you want to top up to degree the HNC may or maynot be of help.

The college may push you up to HND anyway depedning on how things are going.

[CharlieDelta]

I'm referring mainly to the difference between the HNC and HND, not between the HND and FD. Both HND and FD offer exemptions, and are, strictly speaking, on the same academic level (level 5 I believe), whereas the HNC is at level 4 and does not include the Mates/Masters theory. HNC and HND cadets both have to do SQAs, FD cadets do not, which has its pros and cons.

I believe the old system was HND part 1 and HND part 2, and the current system replaces these with HNC and HND respectively.

Warsash only runs the HND programme for cadets, though awards HNCs to those doing OOW courses (i.e. rating to officer etc). FD cadets may do the BSc top up straight away, whereas HND cadets must wait 12 months from the award of the HND. Ostensibly, this is to ensure that a 19 year old isn't awarded the BSc having started their cadetship at 16. Mileage may vary with other courses and other universities, especially courses not designed for seafarers.

I'll see if I can dig up some documents later from MNTB/colleges, because it would be good to have clarification for everyone. I am, of course, coming at it from the deck side so I could be miserably mistaken.

[CharlieDelta]

http://www.mntb.org.uk/education_amp_training_frameworks-16.aspx

Seems to suggest FD and HND include "additional learning to highest level certification" and HNC includes "additional learning to next level certification".

[Chiefy]

for a start engineers never had HND1 and HND2 we only ever had HNC or HND, the C gave you upto seconds expemtions, the D the full lot, and possabilities for degree entry at year 2 or 3 depending upon the course and Uni.

But then we left college with a HNx where as the Deck team used to not get it until sitting M&M's course which was always considered odd even by the engineers

Adding in the Degree's just confuses the situation and I still have yet to hear the killer argument for a degree over a HND while at sea (we'll ignore shoreside issues cos that just makes my blood boil!<-- personal view about every one "needing" a degree regardless of career or future plans)

[CharlieDelta]

I've said before, everything seems to be geared to get you ashore as soon as possible, as if even thinking of staying at sea is a mad idea. I was recently at a certain deckie institution in London and was told in no uncertain terms that I'd be mad to want to stay at sea for any lengthy period of time.

[GuinnessMan]

Sometimes going shoreside isn't so bad. I did it, but that was mainly because I was sick to death of not being somewhere for more than 6 months.

You don't need a degree to go shoreside. I don't have one yet (work in progress).

[ETwhat?]

I've said before, everything seems to be geared to get you ashore as soon as possible, as if even thinking of staying at sea is a mad idea. I was recently at a certain deckie institution in London and was told in no uncertain terms that I'd be mad to want to stay at sea for any lengthy period of time.

You have to remember that most of those people wont have stayed long at sea, propably as they found it didnt suit them for many reasons, and your never going to see in the office the people who have made it their life long career

From an engineering side i would say that haivng a full degree would be easier to find non marine shoreside work but if your working as a technical super or similar its the marine knowledge that is what your using.
the other advantage of anFD is a ordinary degree is 6 months more at the same level honnors 6 more at a higher level where as HNC your looking at 2 years, but then its very much a case of wether or not a degree is waht you want as it wont be what you need. But depending on your company they may not pay for training above the posts your imeadiatly going to fill, so you could end up paying for more to get a chiefs out of your own pocket if you wish to change companies etc.

Ask the people who have made the offer about the options of waiting, if you really want to do the FD and applied for it then wait and jsut get applications in to everyone for next year if you just want to get to sea, do the HNC for a decent number of years it will be enough

[stronglead]

Plus theres nothing wrong with doing HNC at STC as you might get stuck with me in your class :P now thats worse hahahahaha

[Dosedmonkey]

You have to remember that most of those people wont have stayed long at sea, propably as they found it didnt suit them for many reasons, and your never going to see in the office the people who have made it their life long career

I'd be careful with that comment.

Some people who work in cadet training offices have no seafaring background, which is fair enough as that is a little over qualified in some cases.

Others are very experienced, for example the head of vikings cadet program was a very experienced ex-ETO from Carnival Cruises when I was training.

At the end of the day, if you stay in the Merchant Navy until you get your Unlimited Class 1 Engineering ticket (Average around 15 years from starting cadetship), the experience you will carry and extra qualifications will out weigh a foundation degree in marine engineering easily. Although someone is good at acedemics that does not automatically make them a good engineer, and the kind of employers who work with and support their engineers well will realise this. Experience in the long run is much more important.

HND or FD does not change wether a company will pay for your 2nd engineers or chiefs ticket, that is purely on a companies policy, if it is free for one person in the company 9 times out of 10 it will be free for anyone they wish to promote with in their company, based on your engineering ability on their vessels, confidential reports, not qualifications. Also when sitting your 2nds and chiefs ticket, if you pass the exemptions, either HND or FD route, you will get the same course at college.

I've said before, everything seems to be geared to get you ashore as soon as possible, as if even thinking of staying at sea is a mad idea. I was recently at a certain deckie institution in London and was told in no uncertain terms that I'd be mad to want to stay at sea for any lengthy period of time.

I feel this is an opinion of a minority you have happened to talk to out of the seafarers who have qualified, I know some superindentants who work mostly shoreside now, some love the extra challenge, but some say "I should of never left going to sea and being a chief". Your a lot less likely to talk to the people who love going to sea, as their either at sea or on vacation loving their lifestyle, thats partly why I am on this forum, as I can not commit to going into Warsash and helping cadets with the international life style i am currently living.

Also there will be companies trying to encourage you to go shore side as not only are large amounts of people retiring at sea causing a shortage, but there is a upcoming shortage of people shore side also, and if you have a Certificate of Competency you got more experience then someone with a unrelated degree or HND, even if in reality you have very little experience of the merchant navy after 3-5 years of training and being at sea.

[ETwhat?]

I'd be careful with that comment.

Semantically im correct, you cant have a 'lifelong' career AT SEA if after 15 years your working in the office, its very much a generalisation and in direct relation to CD's comment that people who are shore based seem to think that that is the way to go, while you will find people who work in offices and who havent been to sea, you will also find a fair number who have done 5 years or so before coming ashore and then you get people with a huge amount of experience, (my compnay training officer is a former Master). But still the people who are shorebased who think the whole point of going to sea is to come ashore as fast as possible, are obivously going to think that its the best career path. But someone who has made a 'lifelong' career at sea wont be in the office,


As for the Training side of it i was meaning more that if you wish to progress beyond the scope of your company, If they have no need for you to get a chiefs ticket then they are less likely to pay for it knowing that your going to start looking for a different job or become frustrated that there inst a promotion on the way. In this case if your doing it by yourself with the intention of then leaving the compnay, it will be easier to do with the FD, as you wont be needing so much college time or money. but its really an academic point as it requires a very specific circumstance. As has been said if your company has a decent training program and thinks that training you higher is of value then they will, and ive also worked for places that if they train you and you leave within a certain period your liable to pay the costs, so it comes down to every companies training program.

[Dosedmonkey]

'Semantic' or not. You should still be careful not to make comments like that, which could offend people who have worked at sea a long time and now work for training companies, especailly when your a cadet.

Most companies are happy for you, what ever careers choices you take, even if you have the intention of leaving the company soon after getting your next qualification, that is why for this purpose if you do get a free 2nds or chiefs ticket with a company paying for it they normally bond you for a years employment post recieving the qualification. Equally, if your goal is to get promoted quicker, you move between ships and companies of larger nature, and it will happen, if you have the ability. But even in small companies currently anyone of quality will be pushed as there is a general shortage of Chief & 2nd Engineers currently.

Experience works across companies, and across industries requiring the similar skill set. That is why you have referances, and that is why it is a good idea to lay out a CV like I show in another thread, listing your experience, responsibilities and abilities on vessels. I'd also go back and look at Chiefys comment previously in this thread, as it rings true and the same as my experiences in the Merchant Navy.

I don't like to be confrontational on a forum to help cadets, but ETwhat, your experiences are as a cadet so far, and I feel you are jumping to conclusions on how companies treat their sea going qualified officers.

Most of the above applies to the deck department as well, you'd be surprised the companies that value sea experience, shows someone with a routine, leadership, teamwork. Police Forcefor example is perticaly keen on Merchant Navy and Forces people.