Can non-EU cadets do their sea time in the UK?

[SethBuoy]

Hello guys, I have a four-year degree in Marine Engineering and from Ghana.I want to know whether i can get seatime on a UK vessel and then have my OOTW/COC in a Uk maritime academy? Please help me I need advice.

[GuinnessMan]

Re: Sea Time on UK Vessel for Ghanaian

Can I get a seatime on a UK vessel? Yes, if you can find one, flag state isn't all that important. Im sure any of the big hiring agencies can point you in the right direction.

COC in a UK maritime academy? Again, yes you can but you may have to fund it yourself unless you can find a sponsor willing to pay for you and most UK companies won't bother as they can't get the tonnage tax or the SMarT funding for you.

[SethBuoy]

Can Non-EU members do their one-year cadetship (sea time) in the UK?

My name is Seth and i'm from Ghana.I am taking a four year degree in Marine Engineering. I will graduate in June next year and would require a 12 month sea time(cadetship) before qualify for CoC OOW cert. I want to know if there are any companies which will offer cadetship training to non-EU members and how to apply for CoC in UK. Thanks guys

[alistairuk]

I guess you are asking for companies that offer "sea time" as a cadet rather than companies that offer the cadetship program. Most of the international management companies offer sea time to cadets, contact V. ships via their agents in your country or one of the other big ones, your training institute should be able to provide details.

If you are asking how do you do a UK cadetship program, you would need to get in touch with a company which sends cadets to a UK institution from your country. (some of the big oil majors send non European cadets to UK colleges).

As for a UK CoC; you would need to meet the requirements of the MCA to be issued with one and sit their examinations. If you haven't done the MNTB cadetship program, for lack of a better name for it; you probably won't qualify for the fast track schemes that the UK cadets are on, and would need to meet the full requirements (36 months sea time + written and oral examinations)

If you mean how would you get a UK equivalency certificate to allow you to work on a UK flag shipped; you would need to apply for one once you have your licence in your own country - any company that employs you would arrange this if necessary.

[dawg]

. If you haven't done the MNTB cadetship program, for lack of a better name for it; you probably won't qualify for the fast track schemes that the UK cadets are on, and would need to meet the full requirements (36 months sea time + written and oral examinations)

Are you sure about that?

Minimum sea service on main propulsion machinery or UMS duties (on ships of 350kW or more)
6 months (4 months of which on watchkeeping or UMS duties on motor ships);

Total minimum sea service
6 months

http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mcga-mnotice.htm?textobjid=9381EF6FC619196F

[size4riggerboots]

That's for engineering cadets dawg

[GuinnessMan]

That's for engineering cadets dawg

Gangsta....

[dawg]

That's for engineering cadets dawg

Having said that, I have heard a member of staff at a college say that people outside the cadetship system have to do 30 months sea time. They went on about how a cadetship is a fasttrack programme that gets a special exemption in seatime and his decade or more of experience in this.

The trouble is, I can't see where it says that in the rules, and ultimately it's what the MCA's rules say that goes. I also wonder whether they could legally get away with that.
The rules seem to be clear... I dunno about deckies, they seem to need 18 months sea time *not* 36 months. For engineers, it seems you need:
1. The paperwork that says/proves you did 4 months (130 days) of watchkeeping in the ER, + 2 months of whatever else on a ship with a big engine;
2. Your completed TRB;
3. Pass IAMI exams;
4. MNTB workshop portfolio.
I think it all has to be done within a 5 year period.

http://w3.manukau.ac.nz/ebooks/Maritime/index.html
I know an Indian 4/E who was able to do almost exactly 6 months sea time, and do their oral in New Zealand, without so much of the stuff that people in the UK have to do... something about Kiwi requirements being a little more user-friendly than UK ones, maybe he'd done his workshop in India already and perhaps they aren't so fussy about it being at a normal college, rather than a "maritime institution", but a UK CoC is issued because of the connection between NZ and here, and the MCA seems to be pretty much the global rulebook.

I also know of a cadet who left their cadetship, but has allegedly amassed 10 months sea time (by extending their phase 2 with a master's nod) in the engine room in some capacity, and is currently doing the non-cadet route to an EOOW CoC.

It would be interesting and useful to establish what actually is what, especially since there have been one or two cadets who've fallen off the wagon for one reason or other, and are looking for a way to get their CoC without the FD or HND.

[Steve]

Having said that, I have heard a member of staff at a college say that people outside the cadetship system have to do 30 months sea time. They went on about how a cadetship is a fasttrack programme that gets a special exemption in seatime and his decade or more of experience in this.

The trouble is, I can't see where it says that in the rules, and ultimately it's what the MCA's rules say that goes. I also wonder whether they could legally get away with that.
The rules seem to be clear... I dunno about deckies, they seem to need 18 months sea time *not* 36 months.

The reduced sea time requirement is courtesy of the MNTB Training Record Book, formerly Level 3 VQ Merchant Vessel Operations. Level 2 VQ was for trainee ratings, Level 4 VQ got you a six month reduction in sea time requirement for Chief Mate's, but you still needed the same total sea time for Master's.

A deck rating sitting their OOW exams requires more sea time than a cadet because they haven't completed an approved training programme (as per TRB).

http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mcga07-home/workingatsea/mcga-trainingandcert/mcga-merchantnavy/mcga-merchantnavy-deck/sea-service-for-merchant-coc.htm

[Steve]

To satisfy dawg's lust for primary sources, here's a few choice quotes from the Annex to the International Convention on Standards of Training, Certification and Watchkeeping for Seafarers 1978, incorporating amendments from the 1995 Conference. I don't have a copy of the 2011 amendments to hand.

Regulation II/1
Mandatory minimum requirements for certification of officers in charge of a navigational watch on ships of 500 gross tonnage or more

...

2 Every candidate for certification shall:

...

.2 have approved seagoing service of not less than one year as part of an approved training programme which includes on-board training which meets the requirements of section A-II/1 of the STCW Code and is documented in an approved training record book, or otherwise have approved seagoing service of not less than three years;

...

Regulation III/1
Mandatory minimum requirements for certification of officers in charge of an engineering watch in a manned engine-room or designated duty engineers in a periodically unmanned engine-room

...

2 Every candidate for certification shall:

...

.2 have completed not less than six months seagoing service in the engine department in accordance with section A-III/1 of the STCW Code; and

.3 have completed approved education and training of at least 30 months which includes on-board training documented in an approved training record book and meet the standards of competence specified in section A-III/1 of the STCW Code.

[dawg]

lust

...seems to me that it's the industry that is so overtly fixated on rules and regs.

I have seen that it written on the MCA site that if you apply for a Letter of Initial Assessment (LoIA) after completing a TRB, you have to redo the TRB.

The "approved education and training" bit is subject to them making an assessment of you through an LoIA, so it doesn't equate to 'going to a nautical college', as those with previous degrees in navigation or mechanical engineering can testify.

So the former-cadet I mentioned must have had whatever sea time they'd done, approved by the MCA via a LoIA, so they could do the "experienced seafarer route", and then had to re-start their TRB and workshop book and possibly sign up for an online-IAMI exam training course. I guess it must have cost them in the region of ?2,000-?3,000?
The price for not having to wear the uniform and for being a responsible for their own attendance and PPE, short courses, trying to get a berth on a ship if they needed it for sea time.
I wonder how easy or difficult it will be for them to find work at the end of it all?

It just got me to thinking about that girl who failed a lot of exams, and was dropped, I wonder whether there is another way for them without worrying about SMarT funding, given that a new student could get access to a lot of student loans and things.
Perhaps they'd have to be a bit resourceful and enterprising about organising things, but perhaps it might reflect well on them when they came to look for jobs.

[penfold]

As you are about to get a degree, the simplest way to a CoC would be to blag your way onto Clyde Marine's graduate conversion scheme. Trying to fund it yourself by any other route will be rather expensive. Completing your CoC at home and then getting a CEC would be easier if that route is available to you.

edit for Dawg; I was referring to the OP's post, not your post.

[dawg]

I was talking about cadets who've been sacked and want to complete somehow, and saying that if they had access to student loans and things, they might be able to cover the costs of whatever components they need. I've no idea about it though, just pondering...
Not all of them may have done enough to get onto a graduate conversion scheme, I thought they were usually mechanical engineering graduates? They must at least having something like a HND or FD in something mainly mechanical I would have thought.

http://www.clydemarinetraining.com/content/course_information

I suppose an organisation like CMT could probably help some people, but perhaps not if they were previous cadets of theirs who'd been dropped.