To BSc or not to BSc..?

[kayak]

I was at plymouth last week, apparently the guy at CMA CGM who deals with the cadets is actually a german bloke who likes his best cadets to go to plymouth to get "A proper university education". The folks who run the show at plymouth have been trying to pursuade him to move to their new FdSc because from the sounds of it, it will get them a lot more buisness and so will become more profitable for them. So next year could be the last time they run the BSc course, although they will run the top-up apparently.

I need to get into contact with them to pursuade them otherwise, and that they should offer me sponsorship for the BSc! (Should I fail RFAIB).

[size4riggerboots]

Re: HNC Course

I need to get into contact with them to pursuade them otherwise, and that they should offer me sponsorship for the BSc! (Should I fail RFAIB).

Why are you so keen to do the option that makes you wait the longest to get to sea? I'm intrigued.

Trust me when I tell you that what you learn in the classroom is so much easier to understand when you've seen in in real life, that's why the UK courses run on a college/sea/college/sea/etc basis.

[dawg]

Re: HNC Course

I think he's been seduced by the power of the academic side of the force...

In a way, I fell for it too... I could have gone to sea before, but tricked myself into thinking that the futher up the qualification tree I climbed, the sweeter the fruit, and the better the view... but you end up just being surrounded by leaves (I seem to be suffering from plant based metaphor syndrome today). It's never an easy one... and you tend to rationalise it, talk yourself into something (cognitive dissonance reduction ). Sometimes it's best to have no choice.

[kayak]

Re: HNC Course

[whoops I edited your post by accident... I don't think I can undo it! Tron ]

[size4riggerboots]

Re: HNC Course

May I just say ...


DOH

[dawg]

Re: HNC Course

You may.

The jist was - He wants to get a taste of student life and get a degree for life ashore one day... I recommended the Open University for studying what you like when you like, and the University of Patpong for a taste of student life he'll never forget!

[kayak]

Re: HNC Course

Lol cheers tron :P

[alistairuk]

Re: HNC Course

Lovely diagram Tron :P

You can turn an FD course in a BSc if you do another year at uni, though you can't do it at the college, well Fleetwood anyway, can't speak for the others.

It feels like the tutors are all convinced that what we really want to do is do yet another year in education and then stay ashore, every time I say I'm here to get my ticket and go to sea they look knowlegeably at me and say "Oh you'll change your mind". Patronising twits. ( Did I just say that out loud??)

If you are at Warsash Maritime Academy and on the Foundation Degree course you can "top up" to the full BSc by doing another 6 months at Warsash and then a dissertation while you are away at sea.

[size4riggerboots]

Re: HNC Course

Which course did you do Alistair? And are you considering 'topping up' to the BSc? I'm open to good reasons for doing so, but at the moment the thought of another year in college/uni does not seem appealing!

[alistairuk]

Re: HNC Course

Which course did you do Alistair? And are you considering 'topping up' to the BSc? I'm open to good reasons for doing so, but at the moment the thought of another year in college/uni does not seem appealing!

I was Foundation Degree - in the first group to go through at Warsash so ours was kind of made up as we went along

I never intended to do the top up, though I would have done it if my company decided they wanted me to do it, but my reasons for not doing it basically were;

1. I already have a BSc degree in Computer Science
2. My company would not pay for me to do it anyway
3. I didn't see any particular advantage of having it

If you don't already have a degree, then yes I would say its definitely worth while to do it - especially if its only a few extra months and you persuade your company to pay for it!

[size4riggerboots]

Re: HNC Course

3. I didn't see any particular advantage of having it

If you don't already have a degree, then yes I would say its definitely worth while to do it - especially if its only a few extra months and you persuade your company to pay for it!

So what advantage to someone who's not got a degree would you say there is?

I don't have a degree, having dropped out of an art degree course I spent (way too long) faffing about in jobs that were less than fulfilling and am now set on a career at sea. I have no plans take a shore-side job as I've spent plenty of time there already. If I do one day decide to come ashore, hopefully I'll have enough experience in the industry to get a job based on that, rather than a degree that is essentially just a piece of paper.

Do any older seafarers have any thoughts on this subject as well as alistair?

[Steve]

Re: HNC Course

If I do one day decide to come ashore, hopefully I'll have enough experience in the industry to get a job based on that, rather than a degree that is essentially just a piece of paper.

Get the piece of paper. I often wish I had one, just for the options it opens up, even without necessarily wanting to take those options at this point.

[dawg]

Re: HNC Course

My thoughts on the job side of things:
Pieces of paper get you interviews; but they don't get you jobs.
The mixture of paper v experience varies from industry to industry (and on how competent the HR staff concerned are )... the more bureaucratic sectors worry about bits of paper; the more practical sectors worry about real experience.
An incompetent HR person will focus on your bits of paper; a shrewd one, on your actual experience and ability.

There are some scenarios in some industries where there can be a glass ceiling because you lack a particular piece of paper, even when it's blindingly obvious that you are more than competent than those with them (usually bureaucratic sectors); but in some industries tangible experience and reputation is precious and trumps a lot of pieces of paper - so I'd say it depends on what's on your list of maybes for the future.

Jobs seem to (usually) be bestowed upon people with particular personality types... the top earners usually are strong on schmoozing skills, irrespective of their qualifications.

Education can be a bull****ter's game - more about giving up time and money to notch up some points than actually learning anything. I think the FD+Bachelor's route that's available is better than going to uni - unless there's something you have a burning desire to study about; but you may be able to do both...


On the education side of things:
There are certain limitations on funding for studying at uni: basically, if you're in the normal student loans system you get about 5-6 years worth of educational support that's supposed to take into account repeats of terms or years.

If you did a sponsored HND or FD, then you would be able to legitimately enter the Student Loans system to start a new degree from scratch with full funding one day (HND might be better, as they aren't fully integrated into the whole UCAS points system).
If you did a
If you did a HND/FD, you would maybe still be able to get fully funded to do a full degree course in something brand new and completely unrelated... like Biochemistry or Art. Depending on your future plans, this may affect what you think about doing.
(I've got a cousin with an Art degree - he's a waiter in his uncle's bistro... mmm...)

The "Student Loans Company" is one part of the student life that you really don't want to experience, you wouldn't believe the errors they're capable, and the extent to which they can chew up your life.
Whatever you do, if you can get enough sponsorship to avoid having to enter that system, you've less to worry about.
You could then use your wages to spread all kinds of OU courses and other distance learning things over several years, without any trace of the state clawing it back out of your earnings.

[Steve]

Re: HNC Course

You could then use your wages to spread all kinds of OU courses and other distance learning things over several years, without any trace of the state clawing it back out of your earnings.

I don't know how the OU's "Open Degree" is viewed on the jobs market ("Hey, I have the bit of paper with "degree" stamped on it!") but it is an interesting/tempting route for those of us (like size4 and I) who have lots of potential credits to transfer into it - a degree with minimum additional work. Any thoughts?

And when have you ever met a switched-on HR drone?

[dawg]

Re: HNC Course

OU degrees are highly respected, don't knock 'em.

This is not some American online trash degree. Most employers appreciate that an OU degree is done by busy working people - I suppose there may be a stereotype of the flustered working/single mum trying to better herself;but the OU is a good solution for a lot of situations; some people just do them for "fun".
They have 100% full official status in the world of degrees, and are fully QAA-ed

The OU doesn't appear on league tables (for various reasons), but is widely recognised as having the best quality teaching in the world (most real unis are ranked based on research, not on teaching quality - which can be dire).
A boss I have worked for, has an OU PhD that got them their 70k a year job that seems to mainly involve walking around smiling, and generally rubbing people up the right way to get things done.
My mum did one over 8 years; then did a "normal" Masters; and one of my previous lecturers was an OU tutor - they are usually benign souls: the lecturers who are better at (or enjoy) teaching and worse at (or don't enjoy) research that become OU tutors, who want serious flexi time and less of the organisational bollocks - but that's what you want... the ones who are good at research haven't the time or interest to devote to teaching, regardless of how good or bad they may be.

You could do one in a particular subject, or a whimsical pick 'n' mix of anything you fancy... you get a 100% bona fide degree that just has the word "(Open)" instead of "(Fulchester") or whatever after it.

http://www3.open.ac.uk/contact/faq.aspx ... t=1-1SDO4V

With a HND, you're maybe looking at anything from 120-240 credits to get your Bachelors; spread out over up to 8 years I think.

Trust me, it beats the hell out of the "normal" system... which is only good for the few niche and lab-based subjects that are not available with the OU. You can avoid debts and excessive paperwork, and funding errors.

Here's some useful links:

I get involved with a lot of recruitment for my company.

From my experience, it is recognised as a degree although there can be a pecking order. It depends on how many responses we get for a vacancy.

If there are few the pecking order doesn't count for much.

But if there is a lot then we can't interview them all and have to filter.

If candidates have post graduate experience then this is more important than the degree but if newly graduated then we will look at the quality of the CV, the degree subject and the university.

The pecking order we use for degrees is

1st - The classic red bricks
2nd - The original universities (depending on subject there will be an order within these)
3rd - The best Ex-Polys
4th - Other Ex-Polys and the new age Universities

OU is usually ranked somwhere around lower 2nd to 3rd.

The other thing that happens (despite being illegal) is age discrimination. I'm afraid that it still happens.

OU graduates are usually older (and often the better for it) but when placed up against young under graduates age discrimination comes to the fore.

Don't let this put you off though. A degree is still key and triumph over candidates without degrees every time.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/general- ... worth.html
[sounds pretty plausible to me]

Edit: Just to clarify what that guy's on about, if you're contemplating universitedium:
The top two categories above the OU are basically the Russell Group
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_brick_university
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Group
(There aren't very many "original Unis"! Unless he means Oxbridge, Durham, Nottingham and the group of "unis" that are part of the "University of London".
Frankly, I think many of the 1994 Group of unis (that includes highly-rated places like York and Loughborough, and Scotland's St. Andrew's) would qualify as "Red Brick" if they weren't so small.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Group
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_glass_university

The OU is part of the University Alliance group - a similar-sized group of very businessy unis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_Alliance

The lower two categories would cover one or two of the 1994 Group and Plate-Glass in category three and one or two (Univ of the West of England, Univ of Westminster) on this list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Universities

You'll notice that all the maritime colleges are basically in the lowest category, with Strathclyde the best, John Moore's probably the second best (although it's maritime college is new), followed by Plymouth.
(Not that that means much, as they are rated according to research, not teaching; so who knows which is best for what when it comes to nautical cadetships!).


http://www.ms-sc.org/Marine-Society/Con ... t-Transfer

"In 2004 The Sunday Times Universities Guide said "Just four institutions ? Cambridge, Loughborough, York and the LSE ? have a better teaching record than the OU".

In key areas of the Government's own teaching quality assessment - such as general engineering - the OU was awarded the maximum possible score, out-performing the universities of Oxford and Cambridge and Imperial College."
http://www.open.ac.uk/about/ou/p3.shtml






I think switched-on HR drones are usually high-end headhunters in niche industries, where they are a bit like tv/film producers - well connected fixers; but yeah, they're as rare as rocking horse **** in the mainstream corporate world at any level.