What's the difference between HND and FD?

[tempest]

Hi, was just wondering if anyone qualified or nearly qualified could explain the differences between the HND and FD route to me.

I know that FD is a higher academic standard, but I was curious as to what impact that actually had in the real world, will the FD make it easier to get a job once qualified, or is it more down to your experience on sea phases, and how you are able to present yourself in interviews etc...

Thanks for any replies, Sean

[Chiefy]

Re: Difference between HND and FD

jobwise, as in joining a ship no difference what so ever.
Comming ashore latter might make a difference might not, you can do HND to Degree (BEng) in 1 year at various colleges now anyway if you want a degree.

But for you employer, no difference, no extra money no extra responability and no short cut to the top

[tempest]

Re: Difference between HND and FD

Cool thank you. Due to the nature of the job, I figured it would be more experience than academic qualification, was just curious, as there isn't much clarification between the actual differences on the recruitment sites.

You say, you can top the HND up to a degree in one year, is that through companies, similar to the cadetship, or by yourself, or can it be through companies, in terms of promotion, someone told me that to be 2/e you need the Beng?

[Just Ben]

Re: Difference between HND and FD

I did read on here somewhere (will post it if i find it.) that in terms of workload they pretty much the same but with the HND you get more help and the Fd you're expected to do more of it on your own.

[Malim Sahib]

Re: Difference between HND and FD

tempest,
The only qualification you need to be a 2nd Engineer is a 2nd Engineers Certificate of Competency.
Regardless of what route you've taken to achieve your 'ticket', the bit of paper merely says what rank you're allowed to sail as - it makes no mention of HNC/HND/FD, nor does it make any mention of Pass/Merit/Distinction.
An employer won't give a monkeys about the academic route you've taken - all they want to know is if you have the right ticket.
If you want to get a BEng then you'd be as well doing the HND route and then heading off to Uni for a couple of terms afterwards to get the full degree.
A FD is not a degree in any shape or form, and from what I've seen is basically a badly reworked HND with lots more classroom time and essays/presentations, topped off by a flashy new title.
Up here in Scotland its known as a Professional Diploma as the SQA doesn't recognise it as being worthy of degree status.

[CharlieDelta]

Re: Difference between HND and FD

Coming from the deck side, there's very little difference. The general scheme of things seems to be:

Foundation Degree
Phase 1: Subjects to OOW level
Phase 3: Subjects to Mate/Master level
Phase 5: Orals, finishing off etc...

HND
Phase 1: Entry course - introduction to subjects, lots of maths
Phase 3: Subjects to OOW level
Phase 5: Subjects to Mate/Master level

This seems to be the general gist of things. At Warsash the HND takes about an extra six months to cover the same topics (mainly mates/masters theory). We also have to take SQA written examinations in Navigation and Stability.

Other colleges will run an HNC course which leaves out the mates/masters theory, which means a number of months in college when you go for your mates ticket.

Opinions are very much divided in terms of HND vs FD. On one hand, the HND is "the way it's always been done" and many have gone down that route before, though many are keen on the FD for its "degree" status, despite the fact that both qualifications are on the same academic level and the vocational training is the same (i.e. the foundation degree is not a "higher" qualification than the HND). The FD seems to have been developed to attract those who might think an HND is not a "university" qualification.

I'm sure there'll be many more opinions coming though!

[tempest]

Re: Difference between HND and FD

Thanks Malim, just wasn't sure what the difference was, as it's implied the Foundation degree is slightly higher despite having form what I can see identical course structure, and competency ticket issued at the end.

Also, thanks for the info Charlie, I take it your not overly keen on the FD, implying it's mainly a rebranding of the same, ton entice more people, ala starburst and opal fruits etc...

Also, you say you do SQA exams in Warsash, is that not abit odd, being about as far away from Scotland as possible within the UK down there?

[Brimbo]

Re: Difference between HND and FD

I was told by FD students that when they qualify, for instance as a navigator, that its to a 2nd mate, not a 3rd? is this correct?

[CharlieDelta]

Re: Difference between HND and FD

The OOW ticket covers you up to 2nd - you can even go straight to your first ship as a 2nd, which can be common on smaller ships.

tempest, I must confess some bias since I'm on the HND course myself - they both have their advantages and disadvantages. Some FD cadets feel a sense of superiority since they're doing a "degree" and go straight into "saltier" subjects in more depth in phase 1, though I'd be interested to hear opinions from those actually out there working.

[steamer]

Re: Difference between HND and FD

No!! There is no difference between HND and FD other than the first phase at college is harder and out of context. They are exactly the same level of qualification; they cover exactly the same syllabus and result in exactly the same qualification.
If you want a degree, go and study Media or Shoe fitting; if, however, you want a Certificate of Competency then it really shouldn't matter to you.
I have a reputation for being blunt and cynical-but this topic has been dealt with! I actually feel quite sorry for the FD cadets as, in my opinion, too much is shoved onto them from the outset. Also a lot of them get frightened off the career before they even go to sea.
My Dad is a Master, and he is quite forthright in his derision of FD cadets. Mainly from their attitude and over education in the early phase which makes them feel superior to the AB's that they MUST learn from and get on with during their sea phase. (before anyone has a go-he's been in the trade since the start of FD and is indicative of many other old men.....)

[coldo]

Re: Difference between HND and FD

HND is for people who never stuck in at school and didn't get the grades to do the FD.

[Chiefy]

Re: Difference between HND and FD

hear hear Steamer, at last a voice of reason, my whole soap box at home is Degree's in general, having an 18yo daughter brings it in to focus how Brain Washed "kids" (not meant in a derisory way) are in to getting a degree, being at Sea isnt an accademic life of desk polishing and chair molding even Chiefy has to leave the Ivory Tower once in a while. After having had miniChief in tears cos she thought she missed uni by 1 UCAS point and therefore would never have the career she wanted and was now unemployable and and and (all through tears and snot) it has got bloody ridiculous...and I am starting to sound like the Daily Waily Mail

All I want a officers who can do the job, know which way is up and how to use a spanner / hammer etc, if you join as 3rd I expect certain things, you join as 2nd I expect certain other things etc

[Chiefy]

Re: Difference between HND and FD

HND is for people who never stuck in at school and didn't get the grades to do the FD.

Cobblers, total and utter ball cocks, all I have is a HND and (now) 20 years experience, when we started there was 2 HND calsses 1 for 0 Level students was 4 years long 1 for thouse with A levels 3 years long......same CoC and oddly we are all the same rank now so dont pedal that rubbish about sticking it out for grades at school etc. FD is marketing pure and simple

[coldo]

Re: Difference between HND and FD

HND is for people who never stuck in at school and didn't get the grades to do the FD.

Cobblers, total and utter ball cocks, all I have is a HND and (now) 20 years experience, when we started there was 2 HND calsses 1 for 0 Level students was 4 years long 1 for thouse with A levels 3 years long......same CoC and oddly we are all the same rank now so dont pedal that rubbish about sticking it out for grades at school etc. FD is marketing pure and simple

Hahaa, of all people i expected to bite it wasn't you! I'm taking the piss, im on an FD ETO course... simply because they do no HND ETO course.

That said, there is some truth in my jest, if you don't have the grades you can't do the FD course, that's a fact, so the FD does tend to go in at a more advanced level as the students on it are (expected to be) a bit brighter. Where as the HND starts you off from the bottom.

[steamer]

Re: Difference between HND and FD

What a stupid thing to say-there are more graduates in my HND group than in the FD group!!!

And if you look at the national framework, stupid little person, you will see that they are the SAME level of qualification. Now piish off and see how Chiefty trains you up.......you really won't like it!