Cadet mistreatment during Sea Phases - Page 2

View Poll Results: I have had poor experiences due to lack of interest or bad management during my sea phases as cadet.

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  • Yes

    13 61.90%
  • No

    8 38.10%
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  1. #11

    Engineer Officer (CoC: EOOW)
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    The question can't really be answered with a yes/no answer, in my opinion. What qualifies as lack of interest? One cadet may be happy to get themselves stuck in onboard and the other may wait for it all to be spoonfed to them, both are going to have different answers to this question even if they worked with the same crew.

    Of course there is no doubting some cadets are unfortunate enough to be put in situations where they can't even get stuck in if they tried as well as facing mistreatment. Again though it depends on the cadet, what may be seen as mistreatment by some may not be seen as mistreatment by others.

  2. #12

    Engineer Officer (CoC: Chief)
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    CaptainS, I think what you are trying to achieve here is admirable, however, I would suggest that you go about it differently.

    The survey monkey suggestion is a good one, with specific questions aimed at identifying specific problens rather than whether or not cadets felt that they were treated badly or not.

    Physical abuse is clear. Verbal abuse should be clear, but in some peoples' eyes being told to get their arse out of bed in the mornings after being late for watch is verbal abuse.

    Lack of interest is also ambiguous, I was once told by a cadet that he was there to learn, not to clean, it would have gone down better if I did not have a mop in my hand at the time as it was a ship with no engine room ratings and we all did our bit cleaning.

  3. #13
    OC's Resident Grumpy Old Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainS View Post
    Hi Guys,

    I am collating info / stories on cadet mistreatment at sea (by mistreatment I mean the following: Verbal or physical abuse; substandard accommodation; lack of interest in your development; not taking your record book seriously, etc). I am a vice-chair of my local Nautical Institute branch and captain with a large shipping company. We are trying to get the Chamber of Shipping interested in cadet welfare, having many examples of poor treatment would go a long way to making this happen. Please post any incidents or experiences you have had. Keep it as anonymous as you like - also please bear in mind this is a public forum!
    Which branch exactly? How would I, or anyone else here for that matter, know if you are who you say you are and not a Journo from The Sun or Daily Mail looking for a good scare story?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    If you aren't interested in replying to the question then by all means don't. This has been started due to a large number of stories I, and other members of our branch have heard from local cadets. We aren't interested in newspaper stories - we are interested in the welfare of cadets. For those of us who were lucky enough to come up through large well managed companies this probably won't be an issue. I am slightly concerned we are already in the "Grumpy Old Man Syndrome" territory here.

    I can assure you I am not a troll - regardless of what endure thinks. If you read carefully I have already advised folk to be careful as this is a public forum. If you want to post - post - if not - don't.
    At the moment all you have is anecdotal evidence and I can appreciate that you want to turn that into some actual data, but I agree with Newbie in that you're not going the right way about it. If you want to do a proper survey of cadets then I would suggest that it be done via the institute itself and perhaps try and get the likes of the IMarEST involved as well (so you cover the Engineers) otherwise you won't have any credibility with the MCA or even reliable data.

    Don't get me wrong, I've heard a few horror stories myself and I am all for making sure the cadets get proper training and aren't used as cheap labour, but this either has to be done properly or not at all as the message will be devalued. I'm more than happy to help with data collection and analytics but it has to be done via the institute otherwise it's just going to be seen as yet another set of loonies with an axe to grind, and bear in mind we have a few on this forum.
    I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.....

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  4. The following user says Thank You to GuinnessMan for this useful post:

    endure (1st December 2016)

  5. #14

    Retired Radio Officer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    If you aren't interested in replying to the question then by all means don't. This has been started due to a large number of stories I, and other members of our branch have heard from local cadets. We aren't interested in newspaper stories - we are interested in the welfare of cadets. For those of us who were lucky enough to come up through large well managed companies this probably won't be an issue. I am slightly concerned we are already in the "Grumpy Old Man Syndrome" territory here.

    I can assure you I am not a troll - regardless of what endure thinks. If you read carefully I have already advised folk to be careful as this is a public forum. If you want to post - post - if not - don't.
    I didn't suggest that you were a troll but I've been round the 'net long enough to have seen people's lives wrecked because of a few ill considered remarks to the wrong person. Let's hope that you aren't one of them.

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  6. #15
    OC's Resident CV Guru
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    I have avoided joining in with this thread because I think it is flawed, but having seen another thread posted I have decided I need to put a point across.....

    This is a real experience, which I have reported elsewhere as an anonymous experience by a cadet named Roger. But as anonymity allows people to hide behind things I will report it more accurately here. For the sake of argument call my son Roger!

    Roger was a Deck Cadet on the 12-4 watch on a ship where the Captain insisted on Sunday Morning inspections every week. One Sunday Roger forgot to set his alarm, even though he has the afternoon off for studying, only to be woken by the Old Man walking in at 10am and asking what the hell he thought he was doing being in bed, and the Captain has a bit of a roar…

    Roger gets up immediately, cleans his cabin and walks into the Saloon for lunch knowing he is due a bollocking. The Captain calls him over and sure enough hands him a slight bollocking - but then presents him with a very large wooden spoon from the galley with a label all down the length with the words “Wanker of the Week award presented to Cadet Roger, MV Rusty Bucket, Week 26, Voyage 1212” with instructions that he has to carry it around for the next week and even sleep with it by his side as a punishment. For a week Roger carries it on deck watch in port, on the bridge, to every meal and even stands it next to his bunk. He takes all the ribbing that goes with it in good humour and never forgets to set his alarm again to clean his cabin on a Sunday morning. The following Sunday he hands it back to the Captain with a flourish in the Saloon at lunchtime and the Captain announces that the new recipient is an engineer cadet whose name is not Donald!

    Donald at that point storms out the saloon and the Captain tells the remaining deck and engine cadets that they had better talk to Donald and get him to come back and take it like a man. Three cadets go to talk to Donald, but he refuses to come out of his cabin and tells them all where to shove it. They return to the Saloon and the Captain then tells them to get him to come to his office where he delivers a verbal rocket to Donald. Donald then makes his second mistake by getting into a shouting match with the Captain…. What follows is not pleasant…

    Later on, on the bridge, the Captain turns to Roger and tells him he admires him for the way he took what was a fun way of delivering a light arse kicking and being so grown up about joining in with the fun of it…. Roger leaves the ship with a very good report from the Old Man.

    The reason I have told this story again is to highlight a point.....

    My son (Roger!) told me all about it - truthfully. He knew he had done wrong, took the banter in the way it was meant, learned his lesson and moved on. The Engineer cadet, who was treated in exactly same way had a completely different perspective of the incident.

    Had you asked them both to write up what they experienced my son would tell you he was lightly punished for being a muppet and getting caught in bed on a Sunday morning and the punishment was light touch and funny. The engineer cadet would report it as a bullying or intimidating incident for exactly the same thing.

    Whilst there are incidents which will reflect bad practice, bullying, law breaking and downright intimidation there are always three sides to the story. The Cadet's, the Officer who dealt out the "punishment" and somewhere in between is the truth, but you will NEVER know where the truth lies.

    In my time at sea I came across cadets who were boisterous, downright stupid at times and did some absolutely stupid things. (My Seamans Card still has washed out watermarks and is wrinkled where I got back to the ship and realised there was a fence stopping me getting back to the gangway and so I decided it was easier to shin up a mooring rope than walk round to the next dock.... I fell into the dock!) They knew they were wrong and took whatever was said in the right way and acted on it and became better officers for it. I also came across people at the other end of the scale. They were never wrong, someone else always picked on them, everyone else was a twat etc.....

    People are sometimes very economical with the truth, as they hate to admit they were wrong or want to portray themselves in a bad light.

    Me? I got a bollocking for ending up in the dock, got a dressing down for doing something dangerous, got told to go and sleep off the alcohol that lead me to think I was Superman and missed the next run ashore because I got caught! Not because of what I had done.. Was it fair? - of course it was. I deserved more in truth.

    My son? He played cricket on the bridge most nights with the wooden spoon that week with the second Officer and the watchman with screwed up bits of paper, and kept hitting it out of the bridge door. For fun they decided to play with the big ball of rubber bands the Captain was very proud of, as he had been building it for some time. Unfortunately my son hit it for six over the bridge wing............. Neither he nor the 2/O owned up to the Old Man when he could not find his rubber band ball..... If he reads this he knows who it was now!
    "Any damn fool can navigate the world sober. It takes a really good sailor to do it drunk." - Sir Francis Chichester.

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  7. #16

    Retired Radio Officer
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    I don't understand why the OP feels the need to be anonymous. If he's doing this survey with the cooperation of the NI, the CoS and some politicians (as his other thread mentions) why is he not willing to tell us who he is? If he did this (perhaps with some proof) I'm sure people would be more willing to respond.
    io parlo morse

  8. #17

    Deck Officer (CoC: OOW)
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    This is getting confusing. Is this a joint project or are there two separate studies going on?

    I fully agree that this is a serious subject, and I have no desire to stifle any research, but can anyone address any of the valid concerns raised by previous posters regarding research methods, credibility and scope?
    Hello! I'm Chris. I'm away a lot so I'm sorry if it takes me a while to reply to messages, but I promise I'll get back to everyone. If it's urgent, please email me directly at christopher.doyle@officercadet.com. I'm on Twitter and LinkedIn, please feel free to follow/connect!

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  9. #18
    OC's Resident Grumpy Old Man
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    The other thread was actually started by me, I didn't start this thread. I wanted anonymity as I am still a cadet and assumed that was the function of this forum. I was obviously mistaken
    So are you actually working with the various groups you said you were or is that

    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieDelta View Post
    This is getting confusing. Is this a joint project or are there two separate studies going on?

    I fully agree that this is a serious subject, and I have no desire to stifle any research, but can anyone address any of the valid concerns raised by previous posters regarding research methods, credibility and scope?
    I agree with you CD, this is a serious subject and it has to be treated as such. A single question poll and asking for stories just gives me the impression that either there is a single agenda or pre-determined outcome for this study with a large dollop of confirmation bias or this is a journo looking for a scare story for tomorrow's fishwrappers.

    To be honest, I wonder if it's worth OC running this study and data collection in conjunction with HCMM / NI, MNTB, CoS and IMarEST as we have the contacts in the right organisations, we have the people who know how to conduct a study like this lurking in the background as members and I genuinely think that none of the MODS who would oversee it have a particular axe to grind against any of the training organisations or sponsor companies and so would not be perceived as having a particular bias?
    Last edited by Chiefy; 8th December 2016 at 11:37 AM.
    I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.....

    All posts here represent my own opinion and not that of my employer.

  10. #19

    Engineer Officer (CoC: Chief)
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    The other thread was actually started by me, I didn't start this thread. I wanted anonymity as I am still a cadet and assumed that was the function of this forum. I was obviously mistaken
    No you arent, but by the same token you didnt read this thread which was already running, as such there is now some confusion as to who is doing what, with whom and for why.

    I fully agree this is serious but as per previous some of the abuses/ mistreatment are a view point and opinion and not actually either.

    So a clean start and a decent survey monkey survey might be in order, so if someone who needs a project for their degree feels this is of interest it is obvious there is need and plenty of interest for some new and interesting research, I for one have seen enough rest hour violation research, fatigue research and electronic nav aids research

    But then I'm a grumpy old man, I know this to be true as my boss has used that phrase to describe me and m colleagues *proud face*
    Last edited by Chiefy; 8th December 2016 at 11:37 AM.
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  11. #20

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    Thanks for the suggestions guys!
    GuinessMan, it wasn't a lie! I can provide you with more details privately if you wish, but I don't want to disclose them on a public forum now other than what I've already said in my other post (which is now locked)

    Re the suggestions for survey monkey or similar, that was our plan to draw something like that up in the new year but we needed something to base it around. All the violations I've experienced (work rest hours, physical abuse etc) might well be different from the majority of other people's experiences so we wanted to gain as much anecdotal evidence to base the survey around, if that makes sense.

    I do not know who the original poster here was, but I believe one of the unions I have spoken to are in close contact with a nautical institute regarding this matter so it is possible that they wanted to get their own input from this forum too! Or it could just be a coincidence. Either way, is it possible to get my other thread unlocked? I feel that this is the best medium for gathering specific experiences until we can put a survey together.

 

 

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